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Old 04-04-2011, 12:30 AM
Richard746 Richard746 is offline
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Opinion on Breeding

I just want to hear everyones opinion on breeding ball python morphs and stuff. Seems some people are either not a fan of it, or actually against it. there are def a lot of people doing it. My opinion is, we have learned a ton by doing it, there are way cool animals out there now that 30 years ago would have never thought of being possible....and i dont think we are close to done yet with making new ones. I also think its good because over time, the avaerage person is going to be able to have way more choices in what they want just for a pet, rather than having to spend a ton of money or breed for years to get what they like. Just thought it would be cool to hear what everyone else thinks......
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:36 PM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

Oh well at least its not a hybrid like a ball and a jungle or some carpondro or something. Plus we wouldn't of ever had the bumblebee if it wasn't for morphs
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Old 04-07-2011, 01:52 PM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

I'm a sucker for color morphs. I love a bright, rich color on my animals. As far as balls go I have a pastel and high contrast albino - these are just my bright ones - but they're always catching peoples eyes simply for the fact they're different and pretty and bright. I think these morphs are bringing more people in the herping world at opening peoples eyes to various species!
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Old 04-07-2011, 04:52 PM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

Breeders can produce as many colors as they want, I still find Ball Pythons boring. I remember when I thought they were interesting, it was before I was introduced to Boas...
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Old 04-07-2011, 05:16 PM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

Breeding to produce aesthetically pleasing animals is fine and long as it doesn't introduce physical defects that adversely impact the animal. Spider balls are a prime example. The genetics involved in producing spider balls also creates animals with "head wobble", a well defined neurological disorder. This type of breeding places "beauty" before function and is unethical.
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:20 PM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

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Originally Posted by John_White View Post
Breeding to produce aesthetically pleasing animals is fine and long as it doesn't introduce physical defects that adversely impact the animal. Spider balls are a prime example. The genetics involved in producing spider balls also creates animals with "head wobble", a well defined neurological disorder. This type of breeding places "beauty" before function and is unethical.
I pretty much said this in an answer I gave on Yahoo Answers. I was rode hard and put away wet in various responses. Apparently, there are quite a few people that really don't care about the quality of life for the snake or how it might suffer as long as it "looks kewl". *eyeroll*
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Old 04-07-2011, 07:08 PM
antiquity antiquity is offline
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

I personally am not interested in morphs, be it a ball python or boa morph. It seems silly to me to pay 5-10x more for coloration or look that is usually inferior to the beauty of a "normal".

Now, locales are another story..... I have no problem paying for a desirable locale that demands top dollar.
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Old 04-07-2011, 07:37 PM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_White View Post
Breeding to produce aesthetically pleasing animals is fine and long as it doesn't introduce physical defects that adversely impact the animal. Spider balls are a prime example. The genetics involved in producing spider balls also creates animals with "head wobble", a well defined neurological disorder. This type of breeding places "beauty" before function and is unethical.
I thought Spider genetics also produced the head wobble, but a few people on here pointed out that Spider ball pythons have always had those issues from the first time they were brought over to the US, not because of people's breeding efforts here. ???
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:42 PM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

supposedly the first imported spider from africa wobbled.
i have a spider, i got him for free because he wobbles so.
while it looks weird, i dont think anyone here (or anywhere else) can claim they know for sure these animals are suffering..... it just looks weird... wouldnt breed him (or any bp, really), just saying, he seems like a perfectly content ball python other than the impulsive corkscrewing.
another ball python mutation with problems are those caramels, which have some serious kinking issues. ive seen some (on youtube) that look like serious humpbacks, think camels.
on top of this, ive heard (key word, "heard") about the dessert mutation, and how females of said mutation dont ever grow to a solid adult size, like they stay small....
as for the original topic, i see nothing wrong with it as long as it is done responsibly.
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Old 04-08-2011, 03:31 AM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

I don't think it really matters whether or not the first imported spider morph BP wobbled or not. I think it is generally accepted that it is something about the mutation that causes the neuro disorder. My opinion has to do with why anyone would want to purposefully breed successive generations of snakes with this problem.

As for whether or not they suffer, I don't claim to know for sure. However, involuntary movements would seem to cause quite a bit of frustration at the very least.
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I choose to make it a good day!
Ball Python - 0.0.1 "Cuddles"
BCI - 0.3 "Athena", "Delilah" & "Bridget"
BCI - 4.0 "Thor", "Samson", "Mercury" & "Ziggy"
Yellow Anaconda - 1.0 "Cooper"
Normal Retic - 1.0 "Mars"
Tiger Retic - 0.1 "Diana"
Albino Super Tiger Retic - 1.0 "Aleister"
Platinum Tiger Retic - 0.2 "Marilyn" & "Miss Molly"
Platinum Retic - 1.0 "Kennedy"
Jampea Retic - 0.1 "Clarice"
Black Rat Snake (WC) - 0.0.1 "Stryker"
Sinaloan Milksnake - 0.0.1 - "Jesus"
Striped Cal King 0.1 - "Cleopatra"
Mali Uromastyx - "Dio"
Colombian B&W Tegu - "Max"
Nile Monitor 0.0.1 - "Leroy"
Green Iguana 0.1 - "Gracey Jane"
Pyxie Frog 0.0.1 - "Freddy"
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Old 04-08-2011, 05:18 AM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

not defending the breeding of spiders (or spider combos), i myself wouldnt do it. BUT, to say quality of life is poor, is pretty far fetched. from observing my spider, i can say its not an involuntary movement, it's not a twitch or a convulsion, or anything related. its almost like it does not have the ability to tell which way is up, and which way is down. so when he moves, he moves in circles like that. also, this only happens when he is on his own, if you hold him, he rights himself (even if you flip him upside down). its very weird indeed, but even then i wouldnt say he is any more/less for it than any of my other snakes.
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Old 04-08-2011, 06:01 AM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard746 View Post
I just want to hear everyones opinion on breeding ball python morphs and stuff. Seems some people are either not a fan of it, or actually against it. there are def a lot of people doing it. My opinion is, we have learned a ton by doing it, there are way cool animals out there now that 30 years ago would have never thought of being possible....and i dont think we are close to done yet with making new ones. I also think its good because over time, the avaerage person is going to be able to have way more choices in what they want just for a pet, rather than having to spend a ton of money or breed for years to get what they like. Just thought it would be cool to hear what everyone else thinks......
In my opinion there are TOO MANY choices. The average newb herp keeper will only remember the first few that catch his/her eye and are within a certain price range. Personally the only way I think it would be justified is if you can produce a clutch without making normals (including hets), pastel, yellow-bellies, or spiders.

Now someone brought up the topic of locality.... I think it would be cool to see if there are locality balls that are phenotypically different than other populations. I've personally noticed differences in head scalation between balls imported from Ghana/Togo. If I'm not mistaken all the balls are exported from West Africa (Ghana/Togo), I don't think any from other African countries are exported....
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Old 04-11-2011, 04:14 AM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

I am not against selective breeding, but it seems to me that the name of the snake has become more valued than the quality of the snake.
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Old 04-14-2011, 06:03 PM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

there are sub-saharan balls that are supposedly massive, some pushing 7k grams.
And I believe most people acquire these giants to get larger clutches, rather than preserving this locality (am I correct in labeling these sub-saharan giants as specific localities??)
And on the topic of deformities and disorders, this is exactly why I wouldn't breed a spider, woma (they wobble too, on average), caramels, super black pastels, etc...even if the snakes can live long, healthy lives, it is only to meet our aesthetic needs, so is it worth it?...
I am interested in people's opinions who are against breeding color/pattern mutations in general, though. I haven't came across this yet...
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Old 04-25-2011, 04:49 AM
Richard746 Richard746 is offline
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

Alot of good points. Im not trying to sound stupid on this but as far as spiders go.....first i dont think they mind the wobble much at all, i have a sand boa that does that for some reason....second, the snakes would never have a life at all if we didnt breed them. I think the more snakes bred in captivity, the less stress on imports.....to an extent though. do any of you think that it will get as bad as cats and dogs?....like how ppl are always bashing and flagging dogs breeders?
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Old 04-25-2011, 07:20 AM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

I'm of the opinion that the fewer ball pythons produced in the pet trade, the better. The market is beyond over-saturated with them, and quite honestly they're the most problematic of all the "starter" snakes out there.
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Old 04-25-2011, 08:02 AM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

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Originally Posted by SUAD View Post
I'm of the opinion that the fewer ball pythons produced in the pet trade, the better. The market is beyond over-saturated with them, and quite honestly they're the most problematic of all the "starter" snakes out there.
Could not agree more. Every time I am in a pet store I cringe because I don't want to see another BP in half-shed. They seem to stress so easily!

I am personally more interested in boa locales than morphs, and I think it is sad that people sometimes sacrifice locale to make interesting crosses/genetic mixtures. However I do love the morphs that have been produced among corn snakes, with no incident of genetic flaws going along with the morph itself that I am aware of. So basically, breeding in itself, IMO, is not inherently bad. And neither is simply breeding morphs, as seen in corns... It's your intention, your way of going about the process (quality of care for parents and babies, ie not just in it to make a quick buck and spend least possible on food/vet/supplies), and the quality of the animals you are breeding that matters most. People breeding healthy animals, selling high quality pets - that is a positive thing for this hobby and (IMHO) helps keep pressure off wild populations in some species. If you are breeding low quality animals.... well then that's just wrong. And when I say low quality animals I am including a top dollar morph who is blind, or w/e. Anyway sorry for the rant. Very interesting discussion!
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Old 04-25-2011, 08:49 AM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

Absolutely! And ball pythons are, arguably, very low quality animals.





.....ok, I had to throw that one in there....
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Old 04-25-2011, 08:59 AM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

But they can be so sweet! I always feel so bad leaving them in the pet store. I would never pay for a designer BP. Sigh.
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Old 04-25-2011, 08:25 PM
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Re: Opinion on Breeding

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Originally Posted by Richard746 View Post
Seems some people are either not a fan of it, or actually against it. there are def a lot of people doing it. My opinion is, we have learned a ton by doing it, there are way cool animals out there now that 30 years ago would have never thought of being possible....and i dont think we are close to done yet with making new ones.
Humans are inherently selfish, and manhandling an animal's genetic path just to have "way cool animals" is possibly the ultimate in selfishness.

At some point the continuation of an animal's lines in their natural state suffers.

I'm guilty of being selfish too, in that reptiles are not domestic animals yet I ultimately keep them for my own enjoyment. And from a keeper standpoint, cross-breeding/etc. raises prices of purebred animals and floods the markets with cheap mutts, so half the time you don't even know what you're buying anymore.

So to fall somewhere in the middle on that scale, I continue to enjoy keeping beautiful reptiles and give a good home to the ones I have, but I support breeders who breed authentic animals.
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