Venomoid debate part 987889890008765

[Dragon]

You still can't justify unecessary surgery simply because the animal in question has a population problem. The cat that you took on would probably have found another home with somebody who IS prepared to take the animal "as is" without having to resort to having it mutilated in order to protect their arms/furniture/children or whatever. However, that's just my opinion and as declawing is still legal in the U.S. then I guess it's your prerogative.

Paul

[Arbo]

ok this might seem stupid but dont these animals need their venom to digest prey?

[BWSmith]

There is anicdotal evidence supporting both sides Arbo. But as of yet, there has been no conclusive evidence either way. It is my BELIEF that venom is needed. Once instance sticks out in my mind from personal experience. It is based ont he fact that many will state that venomous do not envenomate prekilled prey. I had a Pygmy Rattler that I was feeding F/T pinkies to. He crawled over and started to swallow it, no strike and no apparent envenomation. While swallowing it, I accidentally startled him in the feed tote and he spit it back out. After some time, he had not calmed down, so I moved him back to his cage. I had forgot to take out the pinkie from the tote. The next morning, the pinkie was litterally a puddle. This is the same effect that I have witnessed from Pymys striking live prey and not eating it. This tells me that even this long term captive, injected venom into his f/t-ed prey item. Most will argue that they do not inject during this process, but given what I have seen, I am inclined to think that they do and we just don't dont notice it because it is not a strike, it is more subtle.

Doing good on civility guys. Keep it up

	Frozen/Thawed A rodent or other prey item that is frozen and then thawed to be fed to a reptile or other animal.

[herp_chick]

A few points to think about.....

It has been proven that spaying/neutering dogs and cats reduces the risk of certain cancers. That makes it medically better for your animals, as well as helps reduce unwanted pet population.

Declawing, tail-docking, and ear clipping are COSMETIC surgeries, performed at the owner's rewuest, and have NO medical benefits. The docking of tails and ears actually negatively affects a dog's balance.

Voiding snakes? Cosmetic surgery, again requested by an owner, with no apparent medical benefit. I think it's cruel and unnatural.

As for food animals, I think that is something totally different, as they are not pets and not owned by individuals. I still think it's cruel.

[JuliusSqueezer]

I totally agree that a large amount of reasoning for declawing cats is cosmetic and otherwise selfish from a human standpoint. But I also believe that it's still a better alternative than a gas chamber. I don't think it's such a horrible thing if done young and if that's what it takes to get those cats in homes instead of dead...great! I don't however condone declawing and defanging of wild cats as they still have a habitat in the wild where they can be left alone to do their thing and finding homes with humans is not important.

If all snakes on the planet were venomous, I might not be so hardcore against voids done by a DVM...but this isn't the case. It is not crucial for a mamba's survival for bubba to own one. They do fine in the wilds of Africa and in the hands or at the end of hooks by properly trained keepers. No mortality rate is acceptable for such a thing when there are so many alternatives. If mortality rate was a big problem with declawing house cats, I'd be against that too but it isn't.

[Bry]

Dmaci brings up a good point. I do not agree with surgically altering animals just for our own benefits and/or amusement. Cropping ears and tail makes Dobie the dog look mean, but it does nothing for the dog other than cause a considerable amount of pain and discomfort. I've never seen a cat go through a healing process shortly after being declawed, but I imagine it does cause quite a bit of discomfort, temporarily. No, it does not result in a mortality rate that I know of, and it is hardly beneficial to them. Perhaps the only benefit they recieve from declawing is a better chance at a loving home, which can't possibly be a bad thing. I have a cat with all of his claws, and I often babysit a friend's cat that is declawed. Both cats act in very much the same ways, neither seems to be suffering more than the other. Digging up litter is no more of a problem for the declawed cat than it is for Odie. Spaying and neutering does improve the offspring's quality of life, in a sense, because the likelihood of them ending up in a shelter and ultimately being euthanized is virtually zero. Devenomizing snakes does not benefit or improve their quality of life in any way, IMO. I can't speak from experience, but I have read that voids do take longer to digest prey than an unaltered hot. How does that improve the void's quality of life? Keeping animals as pets puts the responsibility on us to maintain their quality of life for as long as we can possibly manage. In closing, if certain surgical procedures do not add to the animal's quality of life, don't bother.

Bry

	In My Opinon IMO = In My Opinion and IMHO = In My Honest Opinion

[Hawkeman]

do not feel that there is anything to learn from a voided snake anymore than you can learn boxing skills from chaining Mike Tyson to the wall and beating the crap out of him.

As someone who has completed a state-sponsored training program including indigenous venomoids, I must wholeheartedly disagree. I would prefer to adjust your analogy to wearing headgear and going in with Iron Mike vs. going in with just trunks and a cup.

My training with venomoids has saved the lives of literally dozens of snakes. I'm not lucky enough to have hot mentors close enough to work with on a daily basis, so my training was intense and focused when I got it.

I DO draw a parallel between ANY "convienence surgery" on ANY animal. Cats have claws for a reason as do snakes and venom glands. I wouldn't personally own a declawed cat nor a venomoid. However, I don't cast thinly vieled dispersions on those who do. It's their own personal choice.

Our dog is a mutt with a full tail and floppy ears... ...oh and *gasp* testicles! He is in a completely controlled environment because that is our duty as responsible dog owners.

I propose that the Anti-void activists turn their attention and efforts to busting the basement hacks for animal cruelty. THAT is a cause that I will stand behind 100%! If any of you know of any such hacks in the state of Louisiana, let me know and they will be out of business overnight!

If I've offended you, GREAT. It shows you have conviction. All of the above are my own personal opinions formed through a unique experience set.

Tom

[BWSmith]

I am not aware of any hacks in LA. Most of them were students of one hack who would "train" you to venomoid for a price. If for no other reason, than the conditions in which they are produced, I think many can agree to be anti-void, even if not anti-"All-things-void-&-owners".

I do not believe in surgically altering animals to fit our lifestyle. Our lifestyle should altered based on the animals we wish to bring into our lives. We have 6 cats, all with claws.

But I am very anti-venomoid. I refuse to deal with any person, company or organization that endorses, glorifies or creates venomoids. That is my personal choice. And if anyone asks me about those people, companies or organizations, I will tell them why I, personally will not deal with them and the choice is theirs. I have a "blacklist" of dealers and breeders that I go by. They are not only on there for void related issues, but other moral issues I have with thier practices. A subtle boycott.

Others have taken over in the agenda to place the surgury of venomoiding under the Animal Cruelty laws. So I get a break from "Causes".

	Venomoid Venomoid surgery is the removal of venom glands. It is an operation to alter the functions of a snake, not an operation aimed at altering it's appearance. The measurable and desired effect is that the snake no longer produces venom.