Info wanted on C. c. cerastes

[Icicle]

has anyone kept one or know anything about them?
Wikipedia is not helping much.

[HERPHAPPY]

Like what do you want to know?

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[Icicle]

everything

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[Ali]

There's a lot of cool sidewinders here in AZ. I don't keep hots, so I don't know much about them. But it's a lot of fun when you run into them while herping.

	Venomous Reptile A term commonly used to refer to a venomous reptile. Most commonly used in reference to venomous snakes.

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[reticguy69]

they are super easy to keep

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[HERPHAPPY]

Kept them both long-term & temporary relocations...Awfully cute! Usually learn to take little f/t fuzzy mice just fine; I like Carefresh for a substrate or even paper, better than sand. Care is straightforward...uth under part of cage, hide box and small water bowl, other decor pretty optional, and no kissing on the lips!

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	Frozen/Thawed A rodent or other prey item that is frozen and then thawed to be fed to a reptile or other animal.

[Icicle]

How is their bite if one messes up?
Are they mostly a display reptile?

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[HERPHAPPY]

Originally Posted by Icicle

How is their bite if one messes up?
Are they mostly a display reptile?

You'd be hard pressed to find any record of fatalities...but that's not saying it couldn't happen depending on a persons' other health issues (known or unknown...)...mostly a very painful experience you won't want to repeat, or so I hear? (no personal hot bites ever...)
I guess I'd say they were essentially a display reptile....unless you are really height-challenged, then maybe a tango partner?
Keep in mind the younguns start off eating lizards...I never had much trouble getting them on pink mice though.

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[amercnwmn]

Their venom is lethal, but a small amount is usually injected. As far as "display animal" I treat most of my venomous like that. I get them out and move them around when I need to, I feed them, clean their cages, etc, but overall I leave them be.
It's enough of a risk of a bite to deal with them when you HAVE to, why raise it by messing with them unnecessarily? At least that's my thoughts on it.
I'm still relatively new to the hobby, so I tend to exercise more caution than someone who has more confidence and experience.

Temps can average between 90-with 95 basking, and around 70-75 cooler temps. I'm sure there are people who have kept them warmer than this who can chime in, but that's the temps I'd been advised to use when I looked into this species.

If you are getting one, I'd advise an established feeding sub adult. I've heard the little ones can be finicky and occassionally require assist feeding.

There's a decent article on SHHS:
The Sidewinder

I hope that helps.

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[Icicle]

Thanks for the link VoodooChile

And thanks for the temps they need.

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[amercnwmn]

I figured that was probably what you were after.

Don't quote me on it, but I think Al Coritz keeps his on crushed walnut shells, which provides a loose substrate for them, and sand is also used quite a bit by other keepers.

I'd probably put a plastic butter lid in the cage and feed off it to keep a bunch of sand substrate being ingested along with the food. I've found some of my snakes won't eat if I move them into a separate feeding bin, so the lid works well in that case.

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[FLVenom]

A bite will most certainly ruin your day, if not week. Severe pain and lots of swelling is to be expected and perhaps loss of digit. CroFab (antivenom for native Crotalus, etc) will be used and at $1700 PER VIAL, it will get expensive quick. I won’t even figure in ER bill because it will probably be over $5,000 for just a day anyways.

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[Icicle]

Joe, thank you
Now I can see if our local hospital carries it at all, or how long it take them to get it in.

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[FLVenom]

US hospitals ARE required to carry it on shelf. But as you can imagine, some don't. The ER Dr. probably isn't going to know squat about treatment of a venomous snake bite either. A Dr. in PA almost killed a good friend of mine in 2005 after he wanted to give him five vials of CroFab over a 24 period. He was bitten by a large C. adamanteus as was already in the severe stages of the envenomation. Finally, after numerous calls from Capt. Ernie Jillson at Miami Dade Venom Response and others, he finally ceded and did the correct treatment which would be ten vials immediately.

Another thing hospitals like to pull is to try for a fasciotomy to relieve the compartmental pressure of a snake bite. This practice is extremely outdated and should almost never be used. They love to try and cut you because in the end, they're making more money! I've known cases where they've cut despite the keeper’s wishes when they were unconscious. It's absolutely imperative that you have a protocol in place and a trusted friend who can be there to look over what the Dr's. are doing. With us folks here in Florida, we're lucky to have the Miami Dade Venom Response Unit which knows how to treat a snake bite or two.

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[Icicle]

So how many units are in a vial?
what is the shelf life of the vials?

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[Icicle]

I also want to say this clearly now, I'm only doing my research now, And I will not be getting one for another 4-6 years down the road.

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[amercnwmn]

30month shelf life, unless it's changed.

I have a red binder in my car and in my snake room I have marked with "VENOMOUS BITE PROTOCOLS TAKE WITH PATIENT"
On the inside of the binder there are contact numbers for
Miami Dade: Phone Number: (786)336-6600
Non Emergency Phone Number: (786) 331-4444
Ray Hunter: 772) 215-7625
Arizona Poison Control Center: 1-800-362-0101

Here are some good protocols I have Dr. Hunter's in my book:

Hunter Serpentology / T.C.R.S.

WCH Clinical Toxinology Resources

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[HERPHAPPY]

Another note about 'winders...they are essentially kinda 'hyper' and will bite repeatedly (for real effectiveness against a large predator, they have to!)... so yeah, this really is a 'display' animal!!! But watching their rolling motion in a large cage is really fascinating, and they are alert and remain a manageable size...an awesome display critter IMO, once established. I would try for cb...but not sure as to availability. I've only known w/c's...

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	In My Opinon IMO = In My Opinion and IMHO = In My Honest Opinion

	Captive Born Captive Born

[ViperLover]

Originally Posted by VoodooChile

I feegoored thet ves prubebly vhet yuoo vere-a effter.
Dun't qooute-a me-a oon it, boot I theenk El Cureetz keeps hees oon crooshed velnoot shells, vheech prufeedes a luuse-a soobstrete-a fur zeem, und sund is elsu used qooeete-a a beet by oozeer keepers, Bork Bork Bork!
I'd prubebly poot a plesteec bootter leed in zee cege-a und feed ooffff it tu keep a boonch ooff sund soobstrete-a beeeng ingested elung veet zee fuud. I'fe-a fuoond sume-a ooff my snekes vun't iet iff I mufe-a zeem intu a seperete-a feedeeng been, su zee leed vurks vell in thet cese-a.

El duesn't keep neteefe-a Cruteloos, fur reesuns he-a hes steted in hees feedeus. Zee oonly neteefes he-a keeps, ere-a Cupperheeds, und Cuttunmuooths *I theenk*, Bork Bork Bork! I knoo he-a hes Cuppers, thuoogh.

[amercnwmn]

Finally something you ARE an expert at: reciting youtube info about Al!
I suppose I should clarify that I was making a general reference to his sand dwelling snakes. Had 3 things going on at once, and left out parts of my post anyways. Most of the snakes that usually prefer looser drier substrates, he was (at one time) using walnut shells.
There, happy?

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