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Ravnos · #1 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 07:13 PM

Ok... this is my opinion, and I would like to see other people's opinion on the matter, but if this thread resorts to name calling and if anyone starts pointing fingers or even posting sites of so-called snake handlers, I want an admin to remove the entire thread immediately. We've all been there and seen that and theres no need for it. Stick to your personal opinion and stick to the topic.

Whenever keeping venomous snakes is brought up, the word responsibility is always tossed around. Well... what is responsibibility? Obviously, when it comes to venomous snakes, the fundamental part of the responsibility is not dying. The other fundamental part is not killing anyone else. Of course, that is generally the easily understood part of responsibility. You get some locking cages, the proper tools, keep the animals in a locked room. Voila, you feel like a responsibile venomous herp keeper, no? But what else is truly involved in responsibility - for the sake of not just yourself, but everyone in the hobby? I think it extends to how you portray yourself as a venomous herper to the public. The public being: people you talk to on a daily basis - all the way to the net. Yes the net is public, regardless of where you post or how secure you think a site is, all data you send out - every picture you put on a web site is publicly accessable. Everything you say and do as a venomous snake keeper affects us all as a community. Most people out there don't even realize that anyone would want to keep venomous snakes in their homes as "pets". How would you expect them to react to such information for the first time if it was sensationalized up for them by someone representing themselves less than responsibly? I'm not pointing any fingers, I'm not talking about anything specific (even if this post did seem to come at a particular time). Anyway... to make a long story short, I think each every one of us who keeps venomous snakes has a responsibility to others of us. To try and portray the hobby to each other, to non-hot reptile keepers, to the educated public, and to the general uneducated public in a positive, non-sensationalized, and serious light. Remember, ignorance is our worst enemy, and sometimes discretion is the better part of valour.

Rav
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JuliusSqueezer · #2 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 07:25 PM

Responsibility is providing the animal regardless of what defensive tools it may or may not have with a safe, secure, comfortable habitat and to be able to interact, provide health care, basic needs and clean caging for the life of the animal without getting yourself or anyone else hurt or dead. Also it is important not to use the animal to show off to friends....The "cool factor" is the single worst enemy of hot keepers. When some bonehead decides it would impress the chicks if he kept a rattlesnake in his living room next to the beer can pyramid (Beeramid) then things go bad for us all. Noone want's to hear about the responsible keepers. It is the boneheads that always make the news and raise public eyebrows...so showing off your collection to the wrong people may in many cases encourage the "cool factor"
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telefrag · #3 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 07:33 PM

Well,
Im of the stout opinion that venomous snakes DO NOT belong in private collections unless that person is doing viable and documented scientific studies.

People who just want to have hots, that just blows my mind.
I was watching a show on Discovery the other night, and a few of the snakebite victims were bitten by their own captives.

I dont care how long you work with hots, or how good you think you are, I dont think anything can adequately prepare you for dealing with situations that can arise.

I have worked with snakes for coming up on 20 years, and I still dont feel that is enough time to consider myself ready to work with hots on a regular basis.
I have field collected Crotalids, and naturally, I will do the best to assist in road crossings (but I dont bother them if I dont have to).

Just my .02
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Flood · #4 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 07:48 PM

It is the same as most any other animal being kept as a pet. Just a different scale. People have raised dogs to kill whether intentionally or just in the particular dog's nature. People keep 'big' cats, wolf-mixed dogs, serpents and lizards, arachnids, etc...what makes keeping all of these and others acceptable and raising them irresponsibly but not hots? Point being, there are a lot of other animals kept by the general public that possess the ability to kill their keepers or others just as quickly. The most domestic; cats and dogs are the most widely spread neglected animals in north america, and this will most likely not change for a long time if ever. The same goes for hots.
Unfortunately, the bad comes with the good. Bad keepers will always be around, that is, until keeping a certain animal is outlawed entirely, which hurts both the good keepers and the animals themselves. And even if outlawed it would not rid the world of irresponsible keepers. Half of the county I live in has a ban on keeping pythons and/or boas as pets(brought on by 2 irresponsible keepers, involving 2 large roaming pythons and their under 1 year old infant). Now I watch people I know to take care of their animals being charged?!?
Like I said, the good and the bad go hand in hand, the best we can hope is that the bad is efficiently combatted by the good.
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JuliusSqueezer · #5 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 07:55 PM

ohhh I dunno frag....education is another good reason...if more people could see them and be shown that they won't come flying through the air to bite you and that they are just cute little snakes doing their thing, I think fewer people might go on witch hunts to try and exterminate them into extinction. Besides that....due to widespread ignorance, habitiat destruction, roundups etc....many species that we all enjoy looking at from time to time might disapear if not at least some were to be kept and bred in private collections. This is true for any herps really...If noone kept Hogg Island boas...we would have to enjoy photos and illustrations in books right now.
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ChrisRezendes · #6 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 08:00 PM

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> Well,
Im of the stout opinion that venomous snakes DO NOT belong in private collections unless that person is doing viable and documented scientific studies.

People who just want to have hots, that just blows my mind.
I was watching a show on Discovery the other night, and a few of the snakebite victims were bitten by their own captives.

I dont care how long you work with hots, or how good you think you are, I dont think anything can adequately prepare you for dealing with situations that can arise.

I have worked with snakes for coming up on 20 years, and I still dont feel that is enough time to consider myself ready to work with hots on a regular basis.
I have field collected Crotalids, and naturally, I will do the best to assist in road crossings (but I dont bother them if I dont have to).

Just my .02 </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

I pretty much agree, although I should specify where I don't. Where Frag said that you should only keep them for "viable and documented scientific studies", I feel that if you are doing it only to further your personal experience and knowledge, that's OK. I also feel that this is only acceptable when the only life at risk is yours and whomever might happen to work WITH you and your reptiles, and that said person would also be extremely aware of the risk involved. Keeping a ven in your living room or bedroom is completely unacceptable. Locked room, and I'm talking locked room like serious locked room- no space underneath the floor, no air vents to crawl into, nothing.

Keeping venomous animals, snakes or whatever, just because they are pretty or just because they are available is completely unacceptable.

That's my spin.

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#7 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 08:16 PM

I think part of this discussion has to ask one question: why do you keep snakes as pets at all? They don't "play" like dogs and cats will with you.

Personally, I am in awe of the snake's ability to thrive in almost any environment. On top of that, they are a highly successful predator that has no limbs. Almost all can climb, swim and move on land equally well. #$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^&, some even "fly". Venomous snakes just have another unique characteristic (venom) that make them even more fascinating to me.

The problem is, the venom that dispatches their prey can dispatch you or some other innocent as well. I don't know that I would say no one should have them in a private collection just to have them. But I sometimes wonder, why does that particular person have them? Just to feed their selfish fascination? How does that differ from keeping a corn snake (dealing specifically with having the animal as a pet)?

But responsibility is not totally the problem. The problem is being able to self analyze critically and accurately.

Here are some examples in my mind of people/situations that should not have hots involved.
If you've kept snakes for over 20 years, but you have a snake escape once a month, you are a ticking timebomb.

If you have hots and have been bitten and envenomated more than twice, logic would dictate you are doing something very wrong.

If your experience level with snakes is minimal (under 10 consecutive years), to my mind, you aren't qualified. Now, there may be some exceptions to that last one, but there's really no excuse with the other two.

If things keep going the way they are, no one will be allowed to keep hots, they'll be forbidden to John Q Public. Only scientific researchers will be allowed to "keep" them. The hot keepers community does a fair job policing themselves, but if no one can stop breeder XYZ from selling an EDB to the first guy with $150 regardless of experience, it's kinda all for naught.

Anyone can talk responsibily, but it's a different kettle of fish to act it, day in and day out to the level that's required when you're dealing with venomous snakes.
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herp_chick · #8 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 08:17 PM

Most of you already know, and for those who don't let me reiterate.............I DO NOT keep hots, never have never will. It's just not something I desire to do. HOWEVER, I believe that there are those who keep them, for their own reasons, and I have NO problem with that. I do have aproblem with the people who keep hots for the "cool factor". Such as the guy who made the home page when he "Kissed" the rattler he had to impress his friend. I agree with Rav, that if you keep hots, you have a responsibility to yourself and others to ensure the safety and well-being of the people around you AND the snakes themselves. Education, further preservation, scientific studues, they are all good reasons to keep hots. There are also some people for whom keeping hots is their thing,(meaning that's what they like, not to show off). I have no problem with that, as I would expect no one to have a problem with the fact that I prefer big snakes. As long as it's not exploited or taken lightly, there is no reason why RESPONSIBLE people should not keep what they want. There are just as many idiots keeping large snakes as there are keeping hots, and the bad always do give the good a bad name: it's called guilt by association. I do not go around advertising that I keep ANY snakes, only family and close friends know I have them, because it's something I do because I LOVE them. So as long as it's not for "show" or some other bad publicity reason, I have no problem with responsible people keeping hots. Sorry so long [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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NYCSpeedcore · #9 (**permalink**) 01-07-2003, 08:25 PM

I really have not come to the conclusion if hot's should be allowed to be kept or not. On one hand every law that is passed makeing certain types of animals illegal to keep the faster it paves the path for most "exotic" animals to become illegal to keep. What will make them stop at Venimous species? #$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^&, most people consider any snake to be a threat. On the other hand there is no way to only put yourself at risk, other people are at risk whenever you put yourself at risk. Especially if you have a wife and kids. How is your family and loved ones going to fair if you die? I for one know my family would be greatly hurt. With the exception of medical studies and makeing anti-veniom I wonder if there is any reason to keep them... it's a never ending debate. What it comes down to is if you feel the benifits out way the risks for you. Keeping others out of physical harm from your animals is a given, but if something tragic happens to you hopefully those you left behind are going to be ok too.
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