just a question for all venomous snake owners

[Icicle]

I admit I know nothing about venomous snake! So here is my question do any or all of you keep your own antidote some place just in case, or just hope you can reach a medical center in time
I am sorry if this is something you people don't like to think about.

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[_Sam_]

I'd assume that if you kept a vemomous snake, you'd want the antidote somewhere nearby. I think it'd be pretty darn irresponsible and arrogant to think "oh, I won't get bit, I'll just be careful" haha.

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[phillipswildbill]

Originally Posted by tdg_onex

I'd assume that if you kept a vemomous snake, you'd want the antidote somewhere nearby. I think it'd be pretty darn irresponsible and arrogant to think "oh, I won't get bit, I'll just be careful" haha.

I'm tellin ya!

[Stigma]

they had better...either that or make sure they atleast have their will written already

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[duckworth]

most hospitals won't allow you to supply your own a/v, but some will and some of those require that it be kept at their facility.

and in 10 years when that a/v is losing its pop and those 10 vials become about as useless as 1-3 vials, you have to spend a few more thousand to update that problem.

keeping around all the a/v the average collection would necessitate would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars every decade or so. no one could afford it.

there needs to be an antivenom co-op but the hot keepers are a microcosm of the herp community. reptile keepers are notoriously unorganized and that leads to all sorts of problems, like lack of an antivenom bank that anyone can utilize with a membership fee, the ability to really fight unfair legislation, etc.

really, your best bet IS to know what you're doing, be careful and never overextend yourself, kinda like when you jump in the car and go to town. insured or not, a bad wreck will still kill you. sometimes being safe and responsible isn't enough when others are not.

at least when it comes to hots, you have control of the situation (or you should)

	Venomous Reptile A term commonly used to refer to a venomous reptile. Most commonly used in reference to venomous snakes.

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[BWSmith]

Luckily, all of my venomous specimens are treated with CroFab which is stocked at local hospitals.

But yes, it is always best to have your own supply if you deal with exotics.

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[morti]

The herpers who happen to live in South Florida are in good shape because the Miami Dade Fire Department runs a program called "Venom One". They stock a wide variety of antivenom and are trained in its administration.

Here in the Midsouth/midwest (Kentucky, Tennessee, Ohio, Indiana) they tend to call upon a man named Jim Harrison (who is of debatable merit amongst hot keepers) and take all his antivenom for venomous bites. That's never fun.

I am not a hot keeper, but I was doing the preliminary stuff to keep cobras when the Kentucky ban went through... I had already spoken with my doctor, hospital, and started the FDA paperwork to import cobra antivenom. I was ready to send it out when the ban went through.

Color me angry.

[John_White]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

Luckily, all of my venomous specimens are treated with CroFab which is stocked at local hospitals.

Ditto.
When you work with venomous animals, it's not a matter of if you'll get envenomated, it's only a matter of when.

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[RevMojo]

Do I correctly recall something about there being no more anti-venin for coral snakes bites after a certain date?

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[BWSmith]

Wyeth no longer produces the Fulvius AV, but there is some cross reactivity with some South American elapid serums.

[duckworth]

Originally Posted by John_White

Ditto.
When you work with venomous animals, it's not a matter of if you'll get envenomated, it's only a matter of when.

if you are a gun owner, it's not a matter of if you'll get shot, but when.

if you are an automobile owner, it's not a matter of if you wreck, it's a matter of when.

if you are a dog owner, it's not a matter of if the dog will turn on you, it's a matter of when?

i'm not sure i buy into the "inevitable mistake" theory. it also seems that someone like BW ESPECIALLY would be offended by someone saying that "no matter what, you will make a mistake that could have been avoided".

i really, REALLY never wanna be bitten and i'm not sure i know many people who WANT to be. some are less careful, but they screw up most things that they do. bites are almost always accidents, aren't they?

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[John_White]

I'm sure that BW is an excellent handler of hots, but none the less he is still a human (as far as we know) and like all humans we sometime make mistakes. A split second laps in concentration/ judgement or slight complacency in your handling procedures at the wrong time is all that's needed. One sure way to get bit, is to convince yourself that "you're too skilled to ever get bit".
Indeed all bites are due to human error.

	Venomous Reptile A term commonly used to refer to a venomous reptile. Most commonly used in reference to venomous snakes.

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[duckworth]

Originally Posted by John_White

I'm sure that BW is an excellent handler of hots, but none the less he is still a human (as far as we know) and like all humans we sometime make mistakes. A split second laps in concentration/ judgement or slight complacency in your handling procedures at the wrong time is all that's needed. One sure way to get bit, is to convince yourself that "you're too skilled to ever get bit".
Indeed all bites are due to human error.

i definitely make mistakes, but i've never been complacent when doing anything dangerous. i take pride in not making big mistakes. i don't wanna shoot a nail through my arm at work and haven't in 7+ years, while others have done it multiple times. i've never caused a wreck and don't feel that i ever will. i've never been bitten and would also like to keep it that way. if i ever felt out of control i'd simply quit doing what i was doing and concede the fact that i wasn't capable anymore.

when i get too old to drive, i'm calling my kids to run me around.

i can see your point about mistakes but i just feel like that's the wrong attitude to have if you're going to mess with anything dangerous to start with.

you don't have to be perfect, just good enough

	Venomous Reptile A term commonly used to refer to a venomous reptile. Most commonly used in reference to venomous snakes.

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[John_White]

The nail gun analogy isn't the same as dealing with an animal. For the most part the nail gun acts the same way each time you pick it up and it's never trying it best to "nail you". I've worked with venomous for about 30 years, never been bit, never want to get bit. The fact I'd like to get across to potential hot handlers is: You can do your best to reduce the risk of being bit, but human nature will never allow you to totally eliminate the risk.

If you're feeling out of control how can you trust your judgement telling you that you're out of control? It's a logical fallacy. We don't know our limitations until we surpass them.

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[duckworth]

Originally Posted by John_White

The nail gun analogy isn't the same as dealing with an animal. For the most part the nail gun acts the same way each time you pick it up and it's never trying it best to "nail you". I've worked with venomous for about 30 years, never been bit, never want to get bit. The fact I'd like to get across to potential hot handlers is: You can do your best to reduce the risk of being bit, but human nature will never allow you to totally eliminate the risk.
If you're feeling out of control how can you trust your judgement telling you that you're out of control? It's a logical fallacy. We don't know our limitations until we surpass them.

but do you really believe that eventually, no matter what you do to protect yourself, that you'll be tagged?

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[BWSmith]

Statistically, John's statement holds true. The sweeping majority of keepers will be bitten at some point. While I have not been bitten, I have had my share of close calls that a millimeter of strike range, a split second pause, or the attitude of the snake that day made all the difference.

If you work with venomous under the pretense that eventually fangs will meet flesh, then that is always in your mind and you do your best to postpone or prevent that moment. However, if you approach venomous with the attitude that if you are careful then you won't get tagged, then you are opening yourself up to disaster.

Gallons of Antivenom has been administered to those that were "too good to get tagged".

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[duckworth]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

Statistically, John's statement holds true. The sweeping majority of keepers will be bitten at some point. While I have not been bitten, I have had my share of close calls that a millimeter of strike range, a split second pause, or the attitude of the snake that day made all the difference.

If you work with venomous under the pretense that eventually fangs will meet flesh, then that is always in your mind and you do your best to postpone or prevent that moment. However, if you approach venomous with the attitude that if you are careful then you won't get tagged, then you are opening yourself up to disaster.

Gallons of Antivenom has been administered to those that were "too good to get tagged".

with all due respect, show me these statistics, i'm all eyes. i know they don't exist, but i'd like you to admit that being careful, cautious and perceptive mean you are in control of the animals you deal with, and that being in control should translate into zero incidents. being "too good to get tagged" and being in control are 2 different things. people who are too good will reach into cages and get bowls without tools or a shift box. people who are actually good will remove the animal prior to cage cleaning.

all the guys i've known who were bitten made a mistake. i listened to their stories and tried to take something from it. some were drinking, some were in a hurry, some had bad arthritis that day, and some were just out of their league.

there is far more to it than luck and statistics.

and again, those stats do not exist.

and i'll say nothing else on the subject because i know what your replies are going to be like. they will not, however, include the statistics.

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[BWSmith]

Of course there are not statistics because it is not a regulated industry. There is also no distinction in hospital records between a legitimate envenomation and the envenomation of a keeper. Some envenomations do not require hospitalization or the victim chooses not to seek medical care. HIPPA standards also impede compiling such statistics. Probably a full half of the hot keepers I have met over the years have taken a hit before the age of 35. Translate that into a lifetime of keeping and the numbers rise.

There is absolutely no way to reduce the risk to zero. The keeper may do everything 100% safe, but there is always the uncontrollable variable of the animal. They may act in sporadic or unpredictable ways that circumvent safety precautions. A safe, sober, and meticulous keeper can greatly reduce the risk, but it can never be eliminated completely.

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[John_White]

If you are the best, safest, defensive driver the world has ever known, you still encounter risk every time you get behind the wheel of an automobile. Despite all your efforts you cannot control the actions of other drivers and the likelihood of being involved in an accident over the course of many years of driving is fairly high. I think this is a good analogy to keeping venomous animals. You cannot possibly control every element, of every situation, all the time.

Duckworth, while we may not be able to offer you hard numbers in the form of statistics, we can offer you our perception and experience gained from many years of keeping and handling venomous snakes. It's your choice to accept it or not.

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[duckworth]

how many years as a hot keeper and how many bites - Experts Forum at VenomousReptiles.org

15 people, 3 were bitten

288 years combined experience and 4 bites
there was one bite for every 72 years worth of combined experience

average experience was 19 years, average bites per person was .27
6 had kept at least 20 years, one was bitten
2 had kept over 40 years with no bites

one was bitten after 30 years of keeping, another was bitten twice in 12 years, another was bitten once in 10 years

according to this, a responsible person's chances aren't so bad.

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