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BWSmith · #1 (**permalink**) 10-16-2002, 05:46 AM

As many have recently read on the homepage of RTB, Ray Hunter was recently envenomated. He is a manager at Exotic Reptiles Jungle, a known dealer of venomoids. This prompted many replies from members (including me). Most of you know that I am very opposed to this practice and have gone to the extend of several lengthy posts and a list of "void" (venomoid) dealers which I suggest that noone do business with. Many of you may have seen a previous post about Ray Hunter recently (before the article was published). This depicts some VERY "sketchy" handling with venomous snakes. Promptly following my reply to the article on the homepage, I recieved an email from Ray Hunter. The gist of the email is this:
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> I do not like the venomoid stuff, and never did approve of it. I am willing to put an end to what very little association we have in that. Please give me a few moments of your time. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
All of you know how hostile I get when it comes to Venomoids. And I think many thought a war would break out between us [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] But I refrained from going off on one of my tangents and decided to call him (he asked me to do this, and offered to call me so I would incur no long distance charges). Needless to say, since I do not know him or how the conversation would go, I elected to call him. This is a summary of our one hour conversation and some information I recieved. This information is not gospel, this what he said to me and what I interpreted.

Naturally, I first spoke regarding venomoids. After all, the butchuring of amazing creatures is one of my passionate hatreds. He claims to have been against the practice of voiding snakes for many years. He began at Exotic Reptiles Jungle roughly 4 months ago. At this time he expressed his concern. After the posts to the article and our conversation. He says that he will tell Exotic Reptiles Jungle that he will no longer have a part in voiding snakes or selling them. He was honest and told me that they had gotten in a shipment of 10 venomoids this morning, and they WILL be sold. But there will be no more after that. I believe him, but time will tell. He also told a couple horror stories about venomoids that brought ME speachless! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] But I will not go into them here. They are currently being integrated into an article that I have been working on.

Some things I did not know (good and bad): He is a venom provider (milking snakes). He self immunizes. He has had 41 serious envenomations. He Does NOT generally use handling equipment for cobras. Take this information as you will.

Next we moved on to the article. I explained to him that we (as a herp commnity) are all damaged by bad press. I expressed that when article of this nature is published AND the photos of him are readily available, it is VERY DAMAGING! For those who are not familiar with the photos, they are mostly of freehandling cobras. The combination of those images with the press of being bitten, bodes well for none of us. I spoke to him, uninterupted, on the issue for over 10 minutes. I can rant sometimes [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] At the end, he was very receptive to my criticisms. He admited to me that most of the images were taken a few years ago when he was "taking a lot more risks." He agreed that they were bad press for us all and did not portray the image we want. He is considering removing those images from his site, though he is not decided one way or the other.

All and all, he was very receptive to criticism and respectful while we were talking. We both kept civil tones and discussed important issues. However, we will always have our differences. I am a purist when it comes to handling. I believe that every precaution should be taken when handling hots. He an "instinct" keeper. He believes that he can handle cobras safely because they generally move in a certain manner. He will not change my views and I will not change his. So be it.

I hope that I did well in portraying this in an arbitrary way, neither defending him or condemning him, mearly restating the content of our conversation.
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BadKarma · #2 (**permalink**) 10-16-2002, 06:27 AM

Leave it to you to get the goods on this. I will be waiting for the article. If it made you speachless I gotta read it. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img]
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zero_point_one · #3 (**permalink**) 10-16-2002, 06:39 AM

I was quite surprised by their conversation and the horror stories. It really is difficult to make BW speechless and quite frequently just as tough to get him to stop talking and listen, so I feel that it was a productive conversation.

I am currently half way through the first major edit (rewrite) of the article, so we hope to have it finished soon. It should be interesting when it's finished.
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XzyluM · #4 (**permalink**) 10-16-2002, 06:48 AM

From the likes, this is going to be a very good article. Can't wait to see it.
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JuliusSqueezer · #5 (**permalink**) 10-16-2002, 06:56 AM

cool...I hope they straighten up...they have some awsome animals for sale at really good prices. I might become a customer once they void the void practice...but I can't, with a clear conscience do business with anyone who is involved with voids. Even for colubrids or boids...To me it's like buying a car from someone who sells crack to middle school kids. I just feel dirty even talking business even if it's unrelated.

....41 envenomations.....ummmm ok. maybe after 30 or so one might think ...ya know....maybe i'm doing something wrong here.
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Ravnos · #6 (**permalink**) 10-16-2002, 06:59 AM

I think after about the 5th one, I'd be really taking a hard look at my handling practices, and wondering if maybe, just maybe, grabbing the #$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^& off cobra with my bare hands isn't the most intelligent thing I could be doing as a profession.

Rav
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eddie · #7 (**permalink**) 10-16-2002, 01:55 PM

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>I am currently half way through the first major edit (rewrite) of the article, so we hope to have it finished soon. It should be interesting when it's finished.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
Jessa! Just make sure Brian pays you editors fees! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

But it seems that some of us have done some misjudging, especially if he does follow through with the changes in relation to voids. Who knows, maybe we are the straws that broke the camels back along with help from BWs call.

Ray, we all can be very passionate about things like this.
Let's go for a fresh start here.

And welcome to Redtail.
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Stormyva · #8 (**permalink**) 10-16-2002, 02:05 PM

Eddie, I think you may have hit the nail on the head. Maybe some of us did mis-judge or jump to conclusions.

I do tend to get excited about certain things and modifying an animal such as a venemous snake so that it is marketable to inexperienced owners is on of those things. I feel the same with pet stores selling burms and retics to any person that walks into the store.

Either way.... welcome to redtail Ray and I apologize if I misunderstood your stand on voids.

Brian, cant wait to see that article and good job on what appears to be the turning of a flame war into something that could turn out to be very good!
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zero_point_one · #9 (**permalink**) 10-16-2002, 04:46 PM

LOL.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> Jessa! Just make sure Brian pays you editors fees! </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Depends on your definition of fees. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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Ed_r · #10 (**permalink**) 10-16-2002, 05:29 PM

HEHE Brain is gonna be paying those fees til death do you part [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]

Thats really cool if you do get an honest convert out of him. Just hope the money isnt that attractive to overcome wanting to butcher animals for the wanna be macho people out there that want to show off.
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