Ray Hunter (A.K.A. Cobraman)

[BWSmith]

As many have recently read on the homepage of RTB, Ray Hunter was recently envenomated. He is a manager at Exotic Reptiles Jungle, a known dealer of venomoids. This prompted many replies from members (including me). Most of you know that I am very opposed to this practice and have gone to the extend of several lengthy posts and a list of "void" (venomoid) dealers which I suggest that noone do business with. Many of you may have seen a previous post about Ray Hunter recently (before the article was published). This depicts some VERY "sketchy" handling with venomous snakes. Promptly following my reply to the article on the homepage, I recieved an email from Ray Hunter. The gist of the email is this:
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> I do not like the venomoid stuff, and never did approve of it. I am willing to put an end to what very little association we have in that. Please give me a few moments of your time. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
All of you know how hostile I get when it comes to Venomoids. And I think many thought a war would break out between us [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] But I refrained from going off on one of my tangents and decided to call him (he asked me to do this, and offered to call me so I would incur no long distance charges). Needless to say, since I do not know him or how the conversation would go, I elected to call him. This is a summary of our one hour conversation and some information I recieved. This information is not gospel, this what he said to me and what I interpreted.

Naturally, I first spoke regarding venomoids. After all, the butchuring of amazing creatures is one of my passionate hatreds. He claims to have been against the practice of voiding snakes for many years. He began at Exotic Reptiles Jungle roughly 4 months ago. At this time he expressed his concern. After the posts to the article and our conversation. He says that he will tell Exotic Reptiles Jungle that he will no longer have a part in voiding snakes or selling them. He was honest and told me that they had gotten in a shipment of 10 venomoids this morning, and they WILL be sold. But there will be no more after that. I believe him, but time will tell. He also told a couple horror stories about venomoids that brought ME speachless! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] But I will not go into them here. They are currently being integrated into an article that I have been working on.

Some things I did not know (good and bad): He is a venom provider (milking snakes). He self immunizes. He has had 41 serious envenomations. He Does NOT generally use handling equipment for cobras. Take this information as you will.

Next we moved on to the article. I explained to him that we (as a herp commnity) are all damaged by bad press. I expressed that when article of this nature is published AND the photos of him are readily available, it is VERY DAMAGING! For those who are not familiar with the photos, they are mostly of freehandling cobras. The combination of those images with the press of being bitten, bodes well for none of us. I spoke to him, uninterupted, on the issue for over 10 minutes. I can rant sometimes [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] At the end, he was very receptive to my criticisms. He admited to me that most of the images were taken a few years ago when he was &quot;taking a lot more risks.&quot; He agreed that they were bad press for us all and did not portray the image we want. He is considering removing those images from his site, though he is not decided one way or the other.

All and all, he was very receptive to criticism and respectful while we were talking. We both kept civil tones and discussed important issues. However, we will always have our differences. I am a purist when it comes to handling. I believe that every precaution should be taken when handling hots. He an &quot;instinct&quot; keeper. He believes that he can handle cobras safely because they generally move in a certain manner. He will not change my views and I will not change his. So be it.

I hope that I did well in portraying this in an arbitrary way, neither defending him or condemning him, mearly restating the content of our conversation.
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[BadKarma]

Leave it to you to get the goods on this. I will be waiting for the article. If it made you speachless I gotta read it. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img]
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	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[zero_point_one]

I was quite surprised by their conversation and the horror stories. It really is difficult to make BW speechless and quite frequently just as tough to get him to stop talking and listen, so I feel that it was a productive conversation.

I am currently half way through the first major edit (rewrite) of the article, so we hope to have it finished soon. It should be interesting when it's finished.
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	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[XzyluM]

From the likes, this is going to be a very good article. Can't wait to see it.
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[JuliusSqueezer]

cool...I hope they straighten up...they have some awsome animals for sale at really good prices. I might become a customer once they void the void practice...but I can't, with a clear conscience do business with anyone who is involved with voids. Even for colubrids or boids...To me it's like buying a car from someone who sells crack to middle school kids. I just feel dirty even talking business even if it's unrelated.

....41 envenomations.....ummmm ok. maybe after 30 or so one might think ...ya know....maybe i'm doing something wrong here.
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[Ravnos]

I think after about the 5th one, I'd be really taking a hard look at my handling practices, and wondering if maybe, just maybe, grabbing the #$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^& off cobra with my bare hands isn't the most intelligent thing I could be doing as a profession.

Rav
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[eddie]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>I am currently half way through the first major edit (rewrite) of the article, so we hope to have it finished soon. It should be interesting when it's finished.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
Jessa! Just make sure Brian pays you editors fees! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

But it seems that some of us have done some misjudging, especially if he does follow through with the changes in relation to voids. Who knows, maybe we are the straws that broke the camels back along with help from BWs call.

Ray, we all can be very passionate about things like this.
Let's go for a fresh start here.

And welcome to Redtail.
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	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[Stormyva]

Eddie, I think you may have hit the nail on the head. Maybe some of us did mis-judge or jump to conclusions.

I do tend to get excited about certain things and modifying an animal such as a venemous snake so that it is marketable to inexperienced owners is on of those things. I feel the same with pet stores selling burms and retics to any person that walks into the store.

Either way.... welcome to redtail Ray and I apologize if I misunderstood your stand on voids.

Brian, cant wait to see that article and good job on what appears to be the turning of a flame war into something that could turn out to be very good!
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	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[zero_point_one]

LOL.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> Jessa! Just make sure Brian pays you editors fees! </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Depends on your definition of fees. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[Ed_r]

HEHE Brain is gonna be paying those fees til death do you part [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]

Thats really cool if you do get an honest convert out of him. Just hope the money isnt that attractive to overcome wanting to butcher animals for the wanna be macho people out there that want to show off.
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[JuliusSqueezer]

Hey wait a minute....back up. 41 serious envenomations? No way....define serious...over what period of time and by what....Ray...are you counting hits from your voids as serious envenomations? I also think all the cobra handling photos are of voids. If not....they might as well have been because when ya deal with voids....it leaves doubt to your sensationalistic stuntman handling techniques.
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[Ravnos]

Personally, I don't consider it serious unless you're in the hospital and requiring medical care... now, if you have 41 of those under your belt, you either have one #$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^& of an insurance plan, or you have one #$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^& of a debt.

Rav
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[BWSmith]

True. Envenomations are far from cheap. they can easily reach 6 digits for a hospital bill.
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[Cobraman]

Very nicely done, Mr. Smith. I could not, nor would not, add or delete anything to your summary. Your summary is very accurate. I welcome any and all comments (constructive),
Blessings
Ray
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[Cobraman]

Julius, look at what you wrote... how can a venomoid snake deliver a serious envenomation??? Also recall back to where I told y'all that I have NEVER owned a venomoid, nor would I ever own one. As mr. Smith reported, I have been self immunizing with cobra venom (and 7 others) since 1991, which has been a factor in (A) my complacency with cobras, and (B) my survival of their bites. When I say &quot;significant bite&quot; I mean a bite that I can tell afterwards that venom was injected. In other words, I don't count nips, and scratches etc. I don't say this to brag, because to any professional herper a bite is an embarrasing thing. I doubt race car drivers brag about how many wrecks they have had. Anyway, I hope this answers your questions, if not let me know, and I will try again.
Peace
Ray
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[Ravnos]

Oddly enough, the race car driver analogy is -exactly- the one I was using when speaking with Julius about this thread last night. Getting bitten by a venomous snake, either seriously envenomated, scratched, nipped, whatever, is a sure sign that you are doing something incorrectly and improperly. Self immunization may be the only reason you're still alive today (you and Bill Haast), but it is not the way most serious herpers like the public to see things. Most people feel there are already enough stigmas and hype about snakes, muchless vneomous ones, and people capitalizing on it for profit is not what the community as a whole needs. So you'll have to forgive those of us who fail to understand why you would do what you do.

Rav
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[JuliusSqueezer]

I know what I said and I know what you said....don't confuse my skepticism for ignorance. I just don't always believe everything I hear from a sensationalistic show boat. Check out this link Texas Snake Man and see if you don't see some of yourself in this fool. Be sure to notice in his guest book how the non herpers think he is cool and how the herpers think he is a menace to society. Maybe looking at yourself or someone else like you from the outside will do you some good. 41 envenomations (assuming this is true) is beyond careless...anything over 2 or 3 for a serious handler is too much in a life time....to me, ONE is too many. I have been handling hots for about 20 years now....and have never had a scratch (knock on wood) is it because I'm a sissy? Far from it. It's because I have more than 2 active brain cells and refuse to let an animal with a brain the size of a pea get the better of me ESPECIALLY for the sake of entertaining idiot thrillseeker spectators.

_________________
My Web Page

[JuliusSqueezer]

On another note...if indeed you do get out of the void business...you will have earned a great deal of respect. As far as the bites...that's your body...do with it as you wish for whatever reason. I just don't like the sensationalistic view of snake handling geared to make people cringe made publicized. All it does is reinforces people's ignorance and fuels their hatred and fear of snakes. And...in many cases gets stupid people that want to be cool like you killed.

_________________
My Web Page

[Cobraman]

Julius, I can't argue your points. I don't pretend that self immunizing myself makes the ACCIDENTS ok, nor does it give me license to do whatever I want with snakes. It is only an added insurance policy for me, much like the hundreds of dollars I spend on exotic antivenoms. Not because I want or plan to get bit, but because it can and does happen. A major factor in the number of accidents I have had is the fact that almost all my accidents occured during the period of time that I was doing venom production. I agree that serious herpers should not have more than one or two accidents in their lifetime, but I doubt that is accurate for people that have been in venom production. There is a big difference between a herper removing a few snakes out of a cage (with a hook) periodically to clean, and a person who is having to catch and restrain venomous snakes 75+ times a day to extract venom. Mr. Haast has approx. 173 bites, and again almost every one of them happened while doing venom production. Neither his facility nor mine is open to the public, so I don't think &quot;showing off&quot;, or &quot;thrill seeking spectators&quot; are a factor. I have never been bitten while handling in front of others (with the exception of one bite in front of my then assistant). I also doubt that my active breain cell count is a factor in the accidents I have had. I am sure there is a much higher risk factor when doing venom production, or dealing in venomous snakes (which number about 400 right now). We don't have to agree with each other, or with the work we do, but I choose to just agree to disagree, and refrain from being insulting just because we are different. If I have insulted you in the past, forgive me, that is not my normal M.O.
As for the venomoids, ome more was sold at Hamburg show, 9 to go. I will be adding a notice on our web site stating that we will no longer deal in venomoids.
Ok, I feel like I am kicking a dead horse (or snake) so lets all just try to get along (at least I will make the effort).
Peace, and Blessings to you
Ray
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	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

	Venomoid Venomoid surgery is the removal of venom glands. It is an operation to alter the functions of a snake, not an operation aimed at altering it's appearance. The measurable and desired effect is that the snake no longer produces venom.