Venomoids and Herpetoculture

BWSmith · #1 (**permalink**) 05-14-2002, 08:50 PM

Just starting a new thread.

How do you think that the increased availability and popularity of venomoids are going to affect the hobby of herpetoculture in the near future? I have seen a tremendous increase in the number venomoids available and have seen several dealers that seem to deal almost exclusively with the sale of venomoids.

For those who dont know....

A venomoid is a venomous reptile which has had either the venom ducts severed and cauderized or the venom producing glands removed. Often, in the case of Vipers particularly, a silicone implant is replaced where the gland was to retain the shap of the head. These animals WILL produce venomous offspring as it is a surgery, not a trait. For most venomous reptiles, particularly vipers with a high concentration of hemotoxins (those affecting the circulatory system) the venom is a way of helping to digest a meal. Often digestive enzymes are present in the venom. Additionally, these animals MUST eat only prekilled food items, as their means of securing food has been taken away. Many animals, as most of you probably know, are rather difficult to switch to Prekilled food items. Often when dealers sell these snakes, the terms "tame" or "handleable" are included in the ad. To see some ads, refer to the kingsnake.com venomous classifieds. Here you can see several dealers who sell venomoids almost exclusively and are breeding venomous for the express purpose of turning them into venomoids.

Please post your own thoughts and opinions, please do not just copy and paste what someone else has said. I will give my thoughts and opinions later.

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eddie · #2 (**permalink**) 05-14-2002, 08:58 PM

Here's the link to the KingSnake Venomous Classifieds.
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JuliusSqueezer · #3 (**permalink**) 05-14-2002, 09:03 PM

I am against altering any animal's natural gifts for the purpose of making them a better pet for idiots. While there are a few valid scientific research reasons for creating venomoids, household pet market does not come to mind. I would love to see the statistics of mortality for both surgery fatalities and long term slow deaths due to feeding/digestion problems...especially in pit vipers and other mainly hemotoxin producing vens. If one snake dies as a result of this or becomes poor from metabolism problems, then none were the effort for the pet trade. Weigh it against the lives of herpers that may have otherwise died from the pet's bite? So what? It isn't like there weren't some 2800 or so choices of colubrids and boids to choose from. Darwinism...nuf said.
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Ravnos · #4 (**permalink**) 05-14-2002, 09:05 PM

My experience with venomoids is that the surgery is done frequently by some hack who might as well have done the work with a chainsaw. Its an operation that has, as far as I can tell, no real standardized procedure in the vetrinary field so every doctor goes about it how every they feel is best.

The long and short of it, its just a way for inexperienced and insecure keepers to keep animals that they otherwise should not even be considering possessing. I think it leads to a gross misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the animal. There was a venomoid Bushmaster at the Hamburg show. I can't believe that someone would take an animal that incredible and try to turn it into a cornsnake.

I dunno... it will always be a heated debate.

Rav

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JuliusSqueezer · #5 (**permalink**) 05-14-2002, 09:07 PM

Another thought on this...

The types of people who buy and/or keep venomoids are the showoff types that are just out to impress a friend or two with what they are "brave" enough to handle. These people will not properly house or care for the animal ... They will subject it to undue stress anytime their beer drinking buddies are over. Should these idiots be catered to? NO....I don't care how much money is involved...we do not need these fools in the herp society at all.
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BWSmith · #6 (**permalink**) 05-14-2002, 09:14 PM

I actually got to work with that Bushmaster when it was still hot. It belonged to a friend of mine and got traded at the Hamburg show. Unfortunately, we had no idea what was in store for this magnificant creature. I am only glad that he survived. When you deal with a species that there are probably less than 50 specimens of in the US (outside of Dean Ripa's collection), it is not hard to know where the animals go. Julius has a snake now that was in my collection at one point, and I know of 3 other people wh had her. At least now she has a permanent home. (sorry, a little off topic)
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#7 (**permalink**) 05-14-2002, 10:09 PM

I personally think it is stupid and idiotic. To me it's akin to declawing and defanging a tiger for a pet. If you cannot deal with it the way it comes from mother nature, you've got no business having it.

Once again, the power of the almighty dollar reigns supreme.
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Constrictor_BO · #8 (**permalink**) 05-15-2002, 02:55 AM

I agree with J.. If you are not willin to deal with the creature the way it was meant to be then you dont have any business dealing with them at all.

I hate to see this procedure being done.
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Ophiophagus-hannah · #9 (**permalink**) 05-15-2002, 03:36 AM

I personally don't like the idea of turning a hot into a venemoid. I think it's just plain cruel. I hear that venemoids don't live as long as the hots that didn't go under the knife. These sellers are also asking a whole lot for the snake just because it's a venemoid. As much as $600 more! The truth to the matter is that there is high demand for venemoids out there. As long as there is demand, sellers will gladly seperate several babies just to undergo this cruel operation. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif[/img]
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Joltman · #10 (**permalink**) 05-15-2002, 03:39 AM

the term venomoid is just appalling to me. I can not see the purpose of taking a reptiles major forms of digestion. I think this would majorly mess the snake up. I do not know much about the subject, but I do klnow I am totally against it.
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trinitywolf · #11 (**permalink**) 05-15-2002, 04:15 AM

I think that the practice of making a snake impotent so that someone with no experience can have a snake they can brag and flex their muscles with is ridiculous. The fact that you can do something does not mean that you should. This is really just mutilization in it's highest form. Changing an animal for an aestetic purpose is silly but changing the very way that an animal functions just to make it a more palattable pet is sad.
If you can't accept or are not ready for a venemous species then you should not have one. If you think that owning one will make you "cool" or "tough" then you really shouldn't have one. If you need something to stroke your ego take up something else. Keeping "hots" is something that even the most expierianced of herpers should think long and hard about before taking that plunge.

just my $.02 worth. Oh yeah...I don't keep hots either.
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CelticWench · #12 (**permalink**) 05-15-2002, 04:15 AM

That's one of the saddest, sickest things I've ever heard. I had no idea people did that. I agree with what J Riley said, if you can't handle an animal they way nature intended it, then don't get it. Those poor snakes, that just got me really upset.

I'm against altering any animal to make the pet owners life easier, spaying & neutering & life saving operations are the only ones necessary as far as I'm concerned.
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Countryboy · #13 (**permalink**) 05-15-2002, 04:47 AM

I think that to keep any type of animal you should have the upmost respect for it especially for something that has the potential to easily kill or perminatly injur you. By creating venomoids all respect by the owner is lost because of the assumption that it is now harmless. To me a the type of persone who would buy a venomoid is someone who is trying to compensate for soemthing else by showing off to his friends. I think this should fall under the catagory of cruelty to animals.
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ss26969 · #14 (**permalink**) 05-15-2002, 04:54 AM

you don't mess with nature............. iff ya wanna mess with the bull you'll get the horns
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BWSmith · #15 (**permalink**) 05-15-2002, 03:36 PM

Despite the obvious health problems that the aminal will endure, something else must be considered. Safety of the keeper and community. I liken buying a venomoid to someone handing you a gun, and you putting it to your head and pulling the trigger because THEY said it was unloaded. These surguries have been known to regenerate over time. Look at your own body, some wounds scar froever and some heal completely. The ductectomy is particularly likely to not be permanent condition. simply severing and cauderizing the venom ducts has been known to regenerate in the past. What do you have then? A hot snake and an incapable and incompetant keeper placing himself, his family, and the community at risk.

Noone can predict what nature is going to throw at them. In the words of Jurassic Park: "Nature Finds a Way."

I once had a dog run away. Why dont we just cut the legs off all dogs so they can't do that?
That cat meows too much. Let's tear out its vocal cords. Maybe bust out all its teeth, just so we know it won't bite.

I am disgusted by the fact that venomoids are becoming so popular. What disturbs me even more is that they are portrayed as "PETS"

Myself and virtually every other hot keeper sin the SHHS has decided that we will never buy an animal from ANY dealer that sells venomoids. Many have even refused to attend shows where venomoids are being sold. Their seem to be several dealers are working exclusively in venomoids. Perhaps some will survive. Hopefully they will fail or see the err in their ways. I am comprising a list of dealers who work with venomoids. These are only the ones who have the surgury done for profit. As anyone in the hobby knows, occasionaly the odd venomoid comes through in a trade. i do not hold these people accountable. Only the ones who intentionally produce these poor souls from a once magnifiscent creature.

I'll get off my soapbox now.
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SteveJor · #16 (**permalink**) 05-16-2002, 07:23 PM

From what I have found out about venemoids, I would not buy one. Some of the venemous snakes are really stunning. My personal favorites are the eyelash vipers (amazing colors) and the pygmy rattler. They demand respect and really should be a "look but don't touch" snake.

Here is my take on them.

1. Some have a ductectomy only (pit vipers mostly). No glands removed. Just the ducts. This can pose a serious risk of regeneration.
2. No documentation that is was done. You may end up with and overpriced hot.
3. Can you trust the seller? This goes back to number 2.
4. The same permit to house a hot snake is required to house a venemoid so what's the point.
5. Sold as "pets". This also goes back to number 2. Handling could be potentially fatal.
6. No person "qualified" to deal wih hots will purposely buy a venemoid. Only the "show-offs".

I don't think they should be sold but until the market disappears, they will unfortunately be available.

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eddie · #17 (**permalink**) 05-16-2002, 08:22 PM

I my self see it as a form of mutilation.
If you want something to impress your friends, get a real viper..A Dodge Viper that is,
At least you can be dead on the road instead of in your own home after a screw up with Mother Nature.
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Dragon · #18 (**permalink**) 05-16-2002, 08:50 PM

I think it's just plain cruel.

As a side note, I also happen to think that the keeping of HOT snakes should be restricted to those who can prove that they are using the animals to further education and/or research that will benefit the animal and it's ecosystem or mankind in general. Other than that I can see no reason for it apart from self-gratification and ego-mania.

I know that here in the UK you can't own any type of venemous snake (with the exception of one or two rear fanged colubrids) without a Dangerous Wild Animal license and in order to get said license you have to prove that your reasons for owning the animal are valid. This should be applied accross the board in my humble opinion.

Just my 2p's.
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BWSmith · #19 (**permalink**) 05-16-2002, 09:03 PM

Myself and many other hot keepres endeaver in education as much as possible. For the most part, that is presenting a venomous display at a nature center or similar forum. Personally, I use them primarily for the education of emergency medical personnel. In many states, it is required to have a special permit. The Florida permit system is a prime example of an optimum permitting system. It is is required that you offer at least 1000 hours of documented experience and get letters of recommendation from permitted hot keepers. I aggree that hots should primarily be kept for educational and ecological purposes. However, the private venomous community has given us a tremendous amount of knowledge that may have taken decades to obtain if there were not so many qualified keepers. I also agree that no experienced hot keeper would ever buy a venomoid. I find it odd that there is a venomoid cobra fro sale on KS that is het for albino. Venomoids produce hot offspring. Why would anyone get a venomoid for a breeding project?
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Dragon · #20 (**permalink**) 05-16-2002, 11:18 PM

That sounds like a bloody good system they've got going there! I do think that people need to be educated in HOT snakes as much as any other reptile and I will always encourage their keeping for this purpose. I'm glad you're enjoying it as much as you seem to! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Just be careful dude, we don't want any entries in the R.I.P. about ya! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]
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