Who here is also seeking out to take in rescue reptiles...

[impermanentrage]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> great turn of direction with lots of vision, in my belief </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Sure. But missing the forest for the trees. Do you work in sheltering? Do you have any idea what its like? You have questions. Most of them are unanswerable. There are more cats and dogs in the US than there are people. You can't catch them all and build shelters for them. That's not vision, that's insanity. I wish we had leash laws for felines, but we don't. I wish i could catch every feral cat/dog in the county and S/N , than release them to homes. Know what? When the Mayor got the bill and the tax payers saw the local rising $ signs, it would be back to square one jack. Cynical? Sure. But at least i'm not having a battle w/ reality.
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[slaponte]

IPR, I am not a doctor, but I have been a patient. I don't work in shelters, but I have adopted and visited many. You subscribe to a wrong idea to start with : I don't have to be a car engineer to drive one. And specialy, I don't have to know anything to have an opinion. Isn't America great??!!

Here is what I know : The shelter is the Dade County (public funded) shelter. It was been runned horribly (as many public shelters are) for a long time. Event : The POLICE department (!) took it over, and they have assigned one of their own to run it. The gentleman, which seems to have very good intentions, went around the US to visit other shelters and learn, since he is a policeman not a &quot;professional&quot; shelter manager. Couple of inmediate changes :

A) They become no-kill. With caveats, of course. They are no-kill for adoptable, healthy animals. I think expecting them to become 100% no-kill would be far from reality. I think the approach consider the reality that not all animals are adoptable.

B) They have started a program to S/N for free. No questions asked. All they require is that you register your pet (there is a $45 licence fee here) which you are supposed to do anyway, but many people don't. They figure with the extra $$$ they recover from the extra registrations they will cover some of the expense of the S/N program.

What I have noticed is a change in approach. Instead of running a pet disposal system, they are now behaving more like a placement organization. I do not expect the goverment to run a perfect operation (that would be, as you stated, a &quot;battle with reality&quot. But I do expect them to run a better operation than what they had.

The change in vision and direction has other results. Adoptions are up. Volunteers are showing up. They had a recent event where volunteers washed and played with the shelter animals for a day. This is unheard off here since I live here 7 years ago. To me, it seems a step on the right direction. Not perfect, but a step...

The only reason this came up on the original post was a reference to how hard county offices make the adoption/rescue process. I don't think we should justify that &quot;our&quot; (meaning one of the rescuers here) processes to be hard because there are harder ones out there. Back to the goal : to find good/fit homes for these pets. Will a hard process help that? No. If you are looking for pet lovers who care about these animals and are willing to take in a &quot;less than perfect&quot; one, I would think you attract more of them with honey than with vinager.

I do support that the final word is yours (rescuer/adoption agent). You have placed an effort and care on this rescue and yours is the final vote. All I am asking is that we open the door and invite people in, nut just shut it on their faces...
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[Ed_r]

I don't actively do rescues, yet. But allot of animals up for adoption find their way to my home. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]
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[impermanentrage]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>The POLICE department </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

That is, unfortunately or fortunately , depending on who you talk to, a very common practice. Char/Meck has also been usurped by the CMPD. In NYC one of the reasond the Animal Control Officers can carry firearms is due to their being sworn officers.


<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> I don't have to be a car engineer to drive one. And specialy, I don't have to know anything to have an opinion. Isn't America great??!!

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

All i'm telling you is to remain healthfully skeptical. If you aren't? You will be told anything that keep you blissfully ignorant towards the truth. The truth is much more difficult to comprehend. The truth is that &quot;no-kill&quot; is a fluffy, bubble-gum image. It is meant to provide a superficial band-aid on the cancerous tumor that is pet overpopulation. If Mi/Dade is truly changing things systemically, with true internal changes , not only rhetorically, or w/ imagery? Than congratulations. But smooth words and soft images don't change the facts. It's meant to make you feel good, like you've supported something constructive, and i'm not saying that you aren't . However, if you want to beLIEve in superficialities(like a $45 dollar registration fee) instead of actual changes due, than so be it.And if you want to have an unregulated system of health care where insurance companies run the game and not health care providers, or a weakened , seller based form of unrestrained capitalism (see mafia) where you are constantly at the mercy of the market, without a means of reprisal, so be it.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> They figure with the extra $$$ they recover from the extra registrations they will cover some of the expense of the S/N program.

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

So it's not free. $ 45 is approximately what most shelters charge , all costs included. This is for canines, as felines are cheaper. See the above paragraph in regards to superficial changes. You are still paying for the costs dude. It's merely candy coated with a nice little name. You feel you've saved money, but in reality you've saved nothing, except a life. And i by no means am trivializing that. I'm just saying &quot;wake-up&quot;. I'm tellin' you like it is. Most employees at a shelter wont. I will. Do you know what Char?Meck charges for animal liscensing on a sterile K-9? $7.50. The S/N option is 40$. That includes everything. S/N, all vaccinations, and both rabies tags and county tags. That also includes any medical needs given to the K-9 during his/her stay. $47.50, not a big differece,and cats are even cheaper, only the semantics have changed. Maybe we should sugarcoat what we do so as to fulfill the bubblegum brained , fairytale dreams of those who feel life is some sanctimonious alter of permanence? No. I'd rather give tours to the public of all aspects of sheltering. But that ain't gonna happen is it? Folks would rather sleep comfortably at night clutching tightly to their myths as they drift more deeply into comfortable lies meant to protect them from truth. And that, my floridian comrade, is the real crime here.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>They are no-kill for adoptable, healthy animals </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

So they aren't no kill. End of discussion. There's no debating that lie.



<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> Back to the goal : to find good/fit homes for these pets. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Sure. But not at the cost of causing the misery of most for the contentment of a few. Most animals (we will exclude most primates from this) are incapable of cognitively registering the concept of mortality. However, they do recognize being caged. There's not much worse than a socially starved canine being caged for years to fulfill some a$$hole's desire to sleep well at night, by anthropomorphizing said dog, and sayin&quot;well, at least he's not dead.&quot; Wake up.



<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> Instead of running a pet disposal system, they are now behaving more like a placement organization </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Do you also blame garbage men for the trash you create?



<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> I do support that the final word is yours (rescuer/adoption agent). </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>


No the final word is the communities. When the community begins to realize that this is their problem, and not the sole responsibilty of animal lovers who simply want to offer theses animals the only thing in life that may be pleasant, and that is, a good death.

_________________
&quot;We are destined to become the most well informed society to ever die from our own ignorance.&quot;
Edward Abbey

[slaponte]

Rage (and it seems the name applies)... I have read your post several times and many parts still elude me. You go on about soo many issues it is hard to tell what is your point.

I did not set out to resolve world wide pet population, the right of man over animals, morality principels in primates or non-primates, etc... While philosophy about all this will go way beyond this one unit of life called me, and I have my opinions on many of them, I do not expect to have the perfect answer, the final answer, or sometimes an answer at all.

I expect even less from goverment agencies. So, I take a step (or seems like a step) in the right direction as a sign of hope, since we don''t have much else to go on.

Fact: The county requires pet owners to register their pets (dogs and cats that is) and pay $45/yr for this licence. Fact : Many people don't. Fact: Now, with this simple act, you also get a free S/N, which is better than nothing, and might help (insignificantly, but maybe) the overpopulation problem. To me, this is a good step. Thats all. No, we did not solve pet population issues in Miami this day. Nor do I expect an overnight solution to show up.

More facts : the county shelter used to operate on &quot;kill the animal after two weeks&quot;. Now, it is a default &quot;no kill&quot; unless due to health or some reasons the animal is deemed un-placeable. This, again to my humble opinion, is a better approach. Better than just kill them all.

Now, if they clean up their act and the place, and make it a nicer experience, more of the animals might find a home instead of death.

Again, the point of the thread was about how dificult/easy the process might be for rescue/adoptions, which I believe pushes prospect adopters to just BUY at the petstore, thus adding to the population issue.

We could go on here on philosophical issues like the right of man over animals, the morality of keeping pets, the morality of eating chiken, or feeding cats to our snakes. In the end, I don't think there is one answer. My reality check : we live in this society, where animals are kept as pets, food, workforce and in some cases loved friends. Sometimes a mix. I don't expect this to change, tomorrow, or even during my lifetime.
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[wendybird]

i dont claim to know much but i have been researching my butt off for a whil and have been lurking here for two years, anyhow my first snake was a rescue, she almost went in the trash (the story is in &quot;just talk&quot i only have one other snake (JCP) but i have several assorted terrariums, of smaller sizes (10-30 gal) and lots of supplies etc, i am also building another 6x4x2 viv just cuz, so ive got some room and some time to take in what i can and try to find homes, there doesnt seem to be much of a net work on the west coat BTW im in SLO, CA - the middle part, 6 hrs north of san diego...
[addsig]

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

This is a fairly civilized debate, but currently in my mind, a pointless one that's been raging for at least a week now.

The crux of the matter is that Mr. Aponte doesn't like the adoption process(es) he's been exposed to. He wants to do the right thing, but feels the process is too involved.

Of the applications I've looked at, I agree. But I'm also capable of understanding my own limits and not trying to adopt something I'm incapable of maintaining, just as if I considered purchasing a certain type of animal (that wasn't available as an adoption). To that end, I simply will only adopt an animal from someone that knows me. I have that luxury of choosing whom I adopt from. Rescuers, on the other hand, are trying to use the application to achieve the same ends. If it is to happen for me in the future, it will be from someone who subscribes to the same train of thought, much like JuliusSqueezer does. I bet when Eddie and Julius sent animals back and forth, they don't make each other fill out an application. Is that because you guys are just updating/changing your rescue stock? No? So it was an adoption then? Or a gift?

I'm not picking a fight, or trying to defend anyone or #$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^& anyone else off.

Rescue, although I consider it admirable, does not make you &quot;Holier than thou&quot;. And no one that sinks all the time, effort and MONEY into rehabbing these animals wants to see it flushed down the toilet by giving it to the first person that applies for it, regardless of experience/qualifications.

And before you all jump down my throat about how I don't know how it goes, I do wildlife rehab. There is no one to adopt it to, no adoption fee to recover even the smallest part of your expenses, because success is releasing the animal back into the wild. And my organization is all volunteers, just like y'all.

Mr. Aponte, my advice to you, as unfulfilling as it is, if you want some animal, purchase it if you're not comfortable with the adoption process. Or find someone who's process appeals to you. That's really all there is to it.

The rest of this grand debate is philosophy on what is wrong with and causing the problem. Let's stop trying to establish world peace when all you really want is someone to get you a whopper your way.

This is my opinion, and everyone is certainly entitled to theirs. If you wish to keep on giving them, go for it.
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[slaponte]

Agree, J. And that is what I did. Adoption didn't work (for me), so I bought, they are three beautifull babys. I will try to adopt again in the future.

The thread was started to discuss an issue and hear opinions, which is what most forums are designed for. I didn't think we would ever find a final solution or agreement. This is a forum about rescues, the issue was brought up, so I related my experience and opinions on the subject.

Rescue work is a great endevour and I take my hat off to you all. I wish I could do it, but my life has not gone in that direction, at least yet. Maybe in the future. For now, I respect those who do it. As Jules stated somewhere, I won't turn my back on any herp needing a &quot;rescue&quot;, but I would probably give it up right away to somebody better qualified to deal with it than me.

I am glad that I feel I can find those individuals here.
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[ss26969]

sorry i don't have room and the girlfriend would make me sleep on the couch [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]
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[eddie]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> I bet when Eddie and Julius sent animals back and forth, they don't make each other fill out an application. Is that because you guys are just updating/changing your rescue stock? No? So it was an adoption then? Or a gift?

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

It is an adoption done with the intent of having one who can care for the animals for the rest of their lives. I have a juvie CA boa that I adopted from Jules that will be with me until the end of its, or my life.
I did get a juvie ammie from him also, lil bish, that I purchased from him.

What he has adopted from me is the same scenario, adoptions that will be with him for a long time to come. Sabby adopted a boa from me also, which you transported for me, J, (many thanks again, as I wasn't able to make the trip). She has since moved out and has taken Clarice with her.

No, they were not gifts, they were adoptions, and not trades either.
There was no application with these animals as after being in conversation with both of them many times prior to such, I felt that they can be trusted to not trade/sell the animals and would be able to provide the best home possible from the ones that I have looking for that species. Also since Jules and Sabby were the first ones to inquire about adopting anything from me, they were on top of the list. Lori was there also due to be one willing to adopt Diamond, the HUGE boa. ( as most don't know, my area has length and weight restrictions, so I do adopt those that would eventually be illegal or already are out of state to areas they are allowed.)
The boa that sabby recieved had been in a near fire situation where its cage was smoldering when the owners found it. It had some possible health issues which both she and Jules were told of well in advance of adopting it.
The next ones also had some on the way to healing health concerns that were told to Jules in advance. Both had been bitten on the heads by rats. Both were also tried and readily accepted f/t food also.
The male still has a slight attitude problem, I am believing to be from its recent rat bite, and I would not be willing to adopt it out so quickly to just any one, as it would have prolly been either eventually ignored to the point of wildness or would not have been kept for long.
Trust me, I know.. The male tagged me several times while the pair were here.
Also since they were from the same former owner and had been together their entire lives, I wanted to find a home willing to take both.
Not a lot of people on my lists are willing to take on snakes with issues and certainly not two at once that have issues.
Most on my list want juvies, such as newborn juvies. Unfortunately, there aren't too many babies that come through here.

Now, as for an adoption application, I do use it when I have potentials I have not gotten to know yet. I do have some that will be on top of the list for special needs animals , such as a black rat snake and a very deformed eastern box turtle that I am holding for Lori.
The rat snake has about 1/2 a head and the turt is very deformed and stunted, both of which will be receiving further care and rehab from her and used in her education program.
Other than those exceptions, I go by my list and keep it fair for everyone involved.
As for getting the animals and brokering them, hehe, unlike some people... There are quite a few that I have rotated off my waiting list by searching adoption forums and contacting the owners and the ones from my list and letting them work it out on their own.
This saves an un-needed trip for the animal and it saves my time and theirs by having their animal adopted quickly to some one close to them.

[addsig]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>There was no application with these animals as after being in conversation with both of them many times prior to such, I felt that they can be trusted to not trade/sell the animals and would be able to provide the best home possible from the ones that I have looking for that species</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly my point, 2 people that know each other. When I adopt from someone, it will be someone that knows me and what I'm capable of, such that I won't be going through an adoption application process.

For as well as you 2 know me, I would be offended if either of you asked me to fill out an application. To me that's an insult, that says you know me, but you still don't trust me. Now, for someone that doesn't know me, I have no problem with filling out an application.

That is ENTIRELY why I put that little blurb that you quoted in there. To get you to say exactly what you did. When the adopter and adoptee know each other that well, there shouldn't be an application.
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[eddie]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> Now, as for an adoption application, I do use it when I have potentials I have not gotten to know yet. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

And this... Forgot it from my other post.
When I do use an application it is used mainly as a legal butt protecter.
And as an animal protecter, tghat way if the adopter does attempt to sell or whatever, it gives me the right to reclaim it as needed. And since it is a written document,(contract) should stand up in court if pursued.