Issue : The Adoption Form

[slaponte]

Well, I was reading some "other" long threads were many (MANY!) issues were brought up. I think there are a few that could be good conversation pieces, outside the context of the people involved. In this case, I ponder about the adoption form.

Before I get started, I would clarify (for the record) that in 42 years of life I have had many pets, from hamsters to the reptiles and fish I have today, including dogs, cats, birds, etc. Some adopted, some bought, some taken in from the street. Some sick, some healthy. On looking back, I realize now not many spent their whole life with me. This might be a good subject for a separate thread... I only have about 1 year of herp ownership experience. Started with a grown iguana (now deceased), a Ball Python (my daugther's), and finaly my first snake (Chica, BCI) and Nile Monitor. Redtailboa.net has been a witness through posts and pictures of all this. Most of what I know and have learned came from here.

Inmediatly after I got interest I started looking for adoption. I figured, I am not a "breeder", why not give a home to a neede pet. Been a modern kind of guy, I looked in the web. All the places I went have the (can I say "dreaded"?) adoption form. Most are extremely long and very personal.

What is the point of adoption? I think we need to agree on this before we go on. Adoption (as I understand) is designed to find homes for pets who have no home (for whatever reasons). Of course, it is hoped a good home, with people who understand the pet and can get along with it. I hope we can agree on this.

Does the form help us achieve the goal? This is where I don't agree totally. While basic info (like name, addres, etc) is pertinent, some other might not be. A person is been "qualified" for ownership based on the answers (lies? Truth?) typed on a form. While the form might discourage good candidates, liers might go through it and get away with it.

I have rarely found that a form can qualify me for anything properly. Bee it a loan for a house, or the ownership of a pet, the form (no matter how detailed) fails to capture who I am, and why I am "applying". What could be the facts about me for the last 3 or 5 years might not represent where I am today.

I found myself extremely discouraged by these forms. So I did what every american would do : I went to the corner store and bought what I wanted. The only question asked? "Cash or charge?". I ended up with a Nile Monitor, TOTALY the wrong reptile to start with (I found later). Thanks to perseverance and good advice, we are both still alive. The Nile is no longer with me... (hummm...)

I do believe that a friendlier "door" into the adoption process could have

A) Got me started with something more appropiate
B) Gotten a neede pet a good home with me

So thats my story. It seems to me the "hard" form only pushes many would-be-foster-parents to opt for an easier purchase, not only taking away a home for a neede pet but adding to the problem in the long term.

It is an opinion. I just got here. As somebody who just got here, that has been my experience so far. If the goal is to find good homes for some of these animals, I would say a friendlier/shorter form and more direct contact (IM, Phone, personal) might achieve the goal much much better...

Now, please, be gentle...
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	Boa Constrictor Imperator Boa Constrictor (Boa constrictor imperator). Most common is the Colombian Boa.

[Reticu-Lady]

I can certainly see your point. If I had my choice, pet shops would have potential buyers fill out adoption applications, too. Since they don't, we have to take on the animals that the buyers can no longer handle.
When I purchased my first Australian Shepherds, I had to go through two interviews, in person with my entire family present for the second one, filled out an application and signed a contract. Actually, I was looking for a puppy but I did so well with them, I was offeed a finished champion to go with her. (Not bad considering the breeder broke a personal rule by selling to me since I had a child under 5 in the family). Anyway, the point is, she knew the dogs were getting a good home. Now that I have pups from those two I got 5 years ago, I do the same thing for people I don't know. The application is more for a legal thing as if the applicant lies on the application, at least I have it in black and white. I have seen a breeder save herself from a lawsuit with her application. The applicant claimed he had no other dogs and lived alone. The dog he was applying for was dog aggressive (meaning he picked fights). The new owner was severly bitten and his mother (yes, he lied about his age as well) tried to sue the breeder, she had the application with his signature to save her from a bad lawsuit. Unfortunatly, the dog paid the ultimate price, he was euthanized.
Anyway, the application serves more than one purpose. Protecting the rescue org and the new owner from legalities. I tend to place more value on the person to person talks (interview) than in the written application, but, I also like to protect myself and my animals.
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[slaponte]

Great comment. And I must admit I didn't even think of the legal angle.

See, here we are, animal rescuers and potential foster parents, and we have this legal cloud over our shoulders. This seems so sad.

I guess it bothers me to have to go thru the system as guilty until proven inocent. Why do I have to prove that I am not a lier, or trying to get the animal under false pretense? So now the system/forms are designed to protect our legal butts, instead of accomplishing the original intention of the adoption process. This is sad.

I would still say you will see "through" to the person better in direct communication than with a form. But the form is what legal understands...
[addsig]

I'd have to agree with what reticu-lady says here. A lot of it is based upon the legal aspects involved in adoption..BUT also the best interest of the reptile [ for what I deal with in rescue/adoption] and the prospective adopter is what pertains to a bulk of the form too.



<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> I found myself extremely discouraged by these forms. So I did what every american would do : I went to the corner store and bought what I wanted. The only question asked? &quot;Cash or charge?&quot;. I ended up with a Nile Monitor, TOTALY the wrong reptile to start with (I found later). Thanks to perseverance and good advice, we are both still alive. The Nile is no longer with me... (hummm...)
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

One would ponder that you prolly would NOT have gotten such a reptile had there been any type of communication exchanged in relation to your purchase prior to such... This is exactly what we are trying to avoid in the placement of the reptiles that come/go through us all in adoption/rescue.
I would agree with you on the types of questions like..Where do you work/what do you do for work...the supplying of a pic id ..or pics of the caging... and also whether someone is a breeder or not too etc. I also try to keep the questions to a minimum but it is hard to do such even when dealing with rescues also. if ya got suggestions.. pass em on please.
I also agree that it is a better way to get to know someone by talking with them prior to an adoption placement..BUT we do need the paperwork ya know...It's a no win situation...
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[impermanentrage]

I would rather euthanize every single reptile that comes to me , rather than see a singleone go to a home where it starves in a cold cage, is poorly or underfed, kept in an enclosure it can barely even move in, eventually left to lie in it's own feces as it slowly withers into non-existence. I have also answered some more of your interesting questions on another forum. For your reading pleasure and criticism i'm going to go ahead and cut/paste my own questionnaire


Reptile Adoption Questionnaire

Species of animal ____________ Record # ____________

Name _______________ Phone _______________


Address _______________

_______________




1) Give specific information regarding the proper care of this animal.
a) What are its dietary requirements?





b) What are its environmental requirements?






c) How are you planning on achieving these requirements?





d) Does the animal require certain levels of light exposure?







e) Why is the lighting so important? (omit for animals exempt)






f) Do you have experience handling these types of animals?


2) Do you have any persons residing with you who would object and possibly release/injure this animal?

3) Do you have a veterinarian? His/her name?
4) High levels of stress are associated with the illnesses/deaths of reptiles.
What steps are you willing to take to insure that this animal&amp;#8217;s stress will not reach detrimental levels?



5) Under certain conditions it is not uncommon for reptiles to go off feed (fasting). This can be attributed to any number of reasons, please give one.






6) Name some common ailments associated with this animal in captivity?






a) What are some of the preventative measures taken to insure that this will come about less frequently?


7) What is the life span of this animal?

a) Why do some never reach there full potential for longevity?


[img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img] Please give a list of additional information you may have regarding the care and treatment of this animal.




9) Have you ever kept this species before? ____________ If so, where is it now?




10) Lastly, why do you wish to adopt this animal?








Thank you.
CMAC-Vet staff


________________________________________________
Office use only




Approved__________


Denied____________



Reviewed by ______




I personally don't see anything wrong with this. And if it were up to me and i were supreme animal welfare dictator it would be required by law for all pet-stores. If they failed to comply? Or if they were providing sub-standard care? Liscense revoked jack. No trial, no jury, straight to flipping burgers.
[img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Peace, love and entropy,
Alex



_________________
&quot;We are destined to become the most well informed society to ever die from our own ignorance.&quot;
Edward Abbey

I find nothing wrong with Rage's application myself, in fact I have filled it out already. The questions are only asking to get to know things in reference to a potential adoption.. sure it takes a few minutes to fill out BUT not like it's a whole day event or such.

Rage... I agree with you on what ya said also.
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[slaponte]

Rage, I agree with your goal. I really do. My &quot;point&quot; I guess is that the strict/complex form does not achieve that. Not only that, but it could be driving away potential &quot;good&quot; foster parents. yet allow &quot;bad&quot; foster parents through.

A) If I am a lier, I can fill out the whole form by reading in the web, which means I have no &quot;real&quot; experience with any of it and can still answer every single question.

B) If I am a first timer, and truthfull, I might not be able to answer almost any. That does not mean I can't learn and or provide for the animal.

I am a newbie (I am!). I had to learn it all as I go during the last year. My snakes are doing great (as far as I and my vet know). I have learned a lot from this site. If I am case (B), I would be extremely discouraged by the form I just saw.

My 3 snakes have new tanks, new lights, new heat pads, are feed properly, they are free of parasites and doing great. Yet, your form drove me away. Wouldn't I had made a good prospective foster parent?

BTW, let me be clear I never saw this particular form before. I saw several, none from people on this website, but all very very discouraging. I thought I was doing the right thing to try to adop first, instead of paying $65 at the local herp show. Yet, that is what I did at the end.

Let me go to my experience. I interview people for jobs. I read resumes. Not that they matter that much. Almost every resume &quot;exagerates&quot;, so as we all now it just opens the door to an interview. I do well on interviews and I am very proud of all my employees.

I learn the most from a prospect employee by THE QUESTIONS THEY ASK. It shows what they care about, it shows what are their doubts, it shows they are NOT AFRAID TO ASK. This, in our case, are better qualities than 100 certificates in the resume.

Maybe this explains why I place low weight on the form...
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[slaponte]

BTW, I hope you don't mind the long posts and conversation. Really, this is not a fight or flame war. I try to understand the issues and give my point of view as a herp owner, possible foster parent, amd wen community participant.

Don't get angry, just explain. I do enjoy the exchange of ideas. And, in the end, if we don't agree, it is just one (my) opinion and it doesn't hold much weight in the big scheme of things...
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[impermanentrage]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>A) If I am a lier, I can fill out the whole form by reading in the web, which means I have no &quot;real&quot; experience with any of it and can still answer every single question. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Well...unless i've worked with you before i generally ask you to answer said questions in the lobby.
And to answer this:<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> B) If I am a first timer, and truthfull, I might not be able to answer almost any. That does not mean I can't learn and or provide for the animal.

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

I already have: I wrote already the following in another post as it pertains to this conversation. It is below:
&quot;Yeah i guess we should just let whomever come in , on a first come, first serve basis, and adopt whatever they want? One would think , that if you truly cared about the animals that answering a few measley husbandry questions is not much to ask. It's not a high school exam jack, your not gonna fail because you got a few questions wrong. It's merely a means of determining who really is willing to put forth a little extra effort in adopting an animal, and therefore finding out who would make a better keeper. &quot; said impermanentrage, on another post, long ago, and galaxies away.


<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> My snakes are doing great </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

I never questioned your ability as a keeper. That was never the &quot;issue&quot;, as it were. I'm sure they have an entire greenhouse to themselves, have their very own massage therapists and feed on free-range rats that eat nothing but organic low-fat grains, and are exercised regularly so as to provide a higher protein:fat ratio.


<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>If I am case (B), I would be extremely discouraged by the form I just saw.

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>


Sorry. I've heard of a place where they keep informationfor free in books. It's called a library. I assume as an educated adult you're familiar with such a place? We're not petstores , your right. I hope we never turn into one such place, where greater value is placed on monetary means, rather than on an informed , ethical person's ability to properly care for an animal.



<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> Don't get angry, </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

I have no choice. I wake up that way.



<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> And, in the end, if we don't agree, it is just one (my) opinion and it doesn't hold much weight in the big scheme of things...
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>


I hate to disappoint you, but your not going to upset me by merely disagreeing with me. You are hardly the first person with whom i have had a difference of opinion. I also agree in the exchange of information, and also that ultimately, in the grander scheme of the cosmos, you and i are little more than compost. So neither you , nor do i, hold much weight beyond the molecular level.


Peace,love and entropy,
Alex
[addsig]

Jumping in here again..hehe

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> A) If I am a lier, I can fill out the whole form by reading in the web, which means I have no &quot;real&quot; experience with any of it and can still answer every single question.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Salp? The way you say that makes it sound like someone who has not personally kept the specie in question and takes the time to research the criteria involved in keeping and caring for such animal , would

a] be a liar

b] be turned down for the adoption of the animal

Such is not the case actually. Even if someone has never kept a certain specie, albeit ruling out something like a ven or crocodilian, does not mean an auto denial on an application for such. If a person is willing to take the time to learn in regards to the care etc on a specific , whether thru web reading, books [ ugh not a personal fave of mine ] , or talking with others who have the experience for such etc..... Doesn't it show that they are willing to do what it takes for the accomodation of proper care for the animal in the least ? Personally I think doing such is a plus for anyone looking to adopt an animal/reptile from me even..NOT an auto denial.
Also , IF they should have incorrect info on the app in regards to something that is pertinent in the care of the reptile... This gives a chance to further &quot;educate&quot; the person in such areas also.
Example... I had a woman apply to adopt an Iguana from me. On the app she put that one of the dietary requirements of the iguana was to feed it crickets...{arghhh] This actually opened the door for when I spoke with her on the phone in regards to the adoption of an iguana from me in helping to educate her on the iguanas needs etc. esp in the area of dietary needs. BTW..She already has been keeping iguanas and has always fed them crickets. She was looking for a new iguana as one of hers passed away from kidney failure for one thing. Her vet even knew that she fed the iguanas crickets as a mainstay in their diet..UGH. Anyone see a problem here at all besides me with the iguanas diet which she had been providing ?
Just to shorten this post.. I did adopt an iguana out to her...AFTER spending quite some time on the phone with her in the area of &quot; Iguana keeping education &quot;. She also now owns a great iguana book that is out in print now too. She has made changes in her iguanas that she already had dietary guidelines too. She no longer feeds animal protein to her iguanas also to say the least. Her vet now knows that iguanas should not eat animal proteins too. I receive emails frequently from her and if she is in doubt on the care or anything going on with the iguanas..she asks and gets answers.

One lil form can accomplish a lot... [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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[JuliusSqueezer]

Ahhh a great debate. Personally, I don't use an adoption application. I either know the people getting the animal(s) or speak to them at great lengths about how they plan to take care of the animal. Most of the rescues that I take in are in poor health and I spend a great deal of time and money patching them back up and either keep them or adopt them out with no adoption fees at all. So...I'll be damned if i just hand em over to the first person that asks for them. I make sure in my own way that they are going to the best home I can find them. I don't dissagree with adoption applications...I just feel that I can satisfy my need to knows through a more casual form of communication. While asking for a piture ID and a note from the landlord is a bit much, I don't think anything in Alex's application should be offensive and I agree with Lori...even answering wrong doesn't mean that the person flunks the interview and should be shunned from adoption UNLESS they put up a fight and stick to their guns and will not listen to reason or be receptive to a better plan.
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