Komodo dragons

[mpgt]

I just heard they had large venom glands in their bottom jaw. I always knew about the toxic bacteria, but this new (to me) info is interesting. Is it possible that other monitors have venom too? I know people have had reactions that make it seem so.

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[razeraze]

Where have you been? Yes other monitors as well as other lizards.
Goanna venom rocks the reptile record : The Voice : News : The University of Melbourne
2005-11-23 Venomous lizards

Dr. Fry has talked about this on a few forums.

Venomdoc Homepage

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[mpgt]

Thanks for the link, Raze. I've been totally focused on snakes lately. I risked posting it here because I wonder if this is news to anyone else here. You still see books and TV shows that don't have the new info.

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[spike06]

i had no idea they were venemous. like u said joe, i knew their saliva had deadly bacteria..thanks for the info raze

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[mpgt]

Yay!!! It wasn't just me.

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[spike06]

haha, nope, ur not alone

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[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Give it time, everything will be classified as venomous.

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[mpgt]

Only if they develop venom glands, right???

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[VexalUntil]

Or toxic saliva, or the building blocks for venom, etc, etc.

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[mpgt]

Originally Posted by VexalUntil

Or toxic saliva, or the building blocks for venom, etc, etc.

Thanks for that. Now I see where he was going with that. That's where I thought the Komodos fit in, but now they discovered venom glands. I wonder how many other monitors have venom glands...

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[razeraze]

MPGT, I will contact him and see if I can get a list of lizard species which contain venom. I am pretty sure komodos, and a few Australian species all tested positive for the venom..

[duckworth]

venom is modified saliva. there are tons of ratsnakes and other types of colubrids that BGF is calling "venomous".

then, they start throwing around "dangerously venomous"

well, to a person allergic to bees, they're dangerously venomous.

they're just screwing up perception of what a venomous animal is

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[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Think about all you know about venomous reptiles..
What is one thing they all have in common, including heloderma?

Every venomous snake; every bee, scorpion, spider all have a delivery system. Heloderma, the two actual species of lizards that are indeed vemonous, have a solid method of delivery. This has been a valid and solid point of a venomous animal since the poison vs venom debate, in which a lot of poisons possess similar compounds as venom. A simple bite and go and hope something happens does not make an animal venomous.
Human saliva causes some nasty reactions when injected..

It's debateable on both sides. If you ask me, running around and saying bearded dragons and Iguanids are venomous will pretty much help fuel bans. Call me when someone dies from an iguana envenomation..

	Iguana Iguana

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[mrcota]

It is not a question of whether or not they are venomous, they are and it is proven. This has long been suspected/known, but Bryan was the first to actually show evidence of the venom producing glands. He has also shown all of the components contained within the venom of those species in his paper. Anyone that wants a copy of this paper is free to PM me for a copy.
.
Fry et al. 2005. Early evolution of the venom system in lizards and snakes. Nature04328. 5pp.
.
Some species contain more powerful venoms than others, just like the venom of Calloselasma is far more potent than that of Popeia. Please read the information before criticising the work, which is clearly being done on this forum. You may have to brush up on biochemistry and terms. Ignorance of the work and terms used is no excuse to bash it.
.
Facts are facts; science cannot be blamed what your governments do with those facts on the basis of ignorance. The people are the ones that elect them and if you have stupid people electing stupid government representatives, what do you really expect your laws to be like?

Give it time, everything will be classified as venomous.

Come on. What is this based on?

Think about all you know about venomous reptiles..
What is one thing they all have in common, including heloderma?

There is no true delivery system in Heloderma, the venom goes up a groove in the teeth, which is even more primative than rear-fanged snakes, which in turn is not much different than in Varanus, where the venom is released between the teeth/out of the 'gums' and relys on the wounds produced by teeth for the venom to be delivered. Another thing to consider about Heloderma compared to Varanus is that they both belong to the infraorder Platynota (Cladistic classification)/Varanoidea (Linnaean classification), in other words, they are closely related.
.
The paper is, as the title suggests, based on the early evolution of the venom systems in lizards and snakes. I have Enhydris spp. in my area that are perfect examples of this. Some have a functional venom delivery system, some do not. In one case, there are fangs and venom glands but nothing yet connecting the two.
.
What has been shown so far are the infraorders of Iguania (Iguanas/Agamids) and Platynota (Varanoidea= Monitors, Anguids, Heloderms)
.
Hope this clears things up a bit,
Michael

[mrcota]

One more thing to clear up, for those unwilling to read the paper. These venom glands are not siliva glands; they are quite separate and distinct, which are clearly marked in the paper in illustrations as venom glands and the other glands according to their classifications.

Call me when someone dies from an iguana envenomation..

No one has died of an iguana bite, yet, that I know of, but someone died of a Varanus salvator bite here three years ago. The blaming of bacteria being the cause of death in Varanus komodoensis prey is completely being reconsidered based on the new evidence.

	Iguana Iguana

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[duckworth]

Originally Posted by mrcota

Come on. What is this based on?

1) people are terrified of what may possibly potentially hurt them. the false water cobra isn't a dangerous snake, although some people do have reactions to the bite. in MOST states, they are considered venomous and are lumped in with king cobras and cascabel rattlers. in some places, the eastern/western hognose is considered venomous, even though to date, a localized reaction is about as bad as i've heard of. people love to classify things, and they often classify based on what MAY happen, instead of what WILL happen or DOES happen.

2) how many colubrids and varanids are now "venomous" when before they were not? so far, BGF hasn't even touched most snakes from other continents. what happens when he gets one of our gray rat snakes and corn snakes? i'm sure that most others, if not ALL others (depending on the evolution of the term venomous), will show to have some type of venom proteins in their bite. most reptile bites are more irritating than other, similar wounds. every reptile bite i've had was more swollen and irritated. nothing of concern, but i'm not the average person. heck, everything concerns them.....heard about that asteroid that may hit us in the year 2545? let's build a big gun.

3) i'm in no way "blaming" BGF, he's doing what he should be doing, but eventually, the word venomous will encompass so much by definition that the perception of the word will ruin everything.

when folks who say "that's poisonous" learn what venomous means, they'll jump on the BAN EVERYTHING SO WE DON'T DIE bandwagon. then they'll all go smoke their cigarettes and die of lung cancer.

but they were safe from themselves, at least.

	Corn Snake The Corn Snake or Red Rat Snake (Elaphe guttata) is a species of Rat Snake.

[LouMuz]

i think this is amazingly interesting.
i'm deffinately passing this on to some of my colleagues who do taxonomy and phylogenetics.

i can understand worries about what the general public might do with this information, but i agree with mrcota that its up to the people making the descisions to be well informed.

if this feeds some sort of witch hunt and our elected officials are uninformed, we should step up and inform them. the same goes for the general public. we need to share correct information in the correct context with everyone to avoid misinterpretation.

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[luker3232]

I knew that

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[razeraze]

Michael I would like a copy of that article, if you get time.

Dr.Fry is always involved in keeping bans from happening. He personally has nothing to gain from a ban on a venomous species, so because he is trying to figure out what exactly venom is, and where it originated does not mean we can blame him for bans. Like Michael said science does not lie. Governments locked up Galileo for proving the earth went around the sun, it does not mean he was wrong, just that the majority of governments are.

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[duckworth]

Originally Posted by LouMuz

i think this is amazingly interesting.
i'm deffinately passing this on to some of my colleagues who do taxonomy and phylogenetics.
i can understand worries about what the general public might do with this information, but i agree with mrcota that its up to the people making the descisions to be well informed.
if this feeds some sort of witch hunt and our elected officials are uninformed, we should step up and inform them. the same goes for the general public. we need to share correct information in the correct context with everyone to avoid misinterpretation.

but that's operating under the assumption that the majority of people even care, which they don't.

facts vs. fiction has always been the main issue concerning reptiles. facts usually lose

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