To UV, or not to UV?

[AJS]

First off I apologise for the massively unfunny Shakespeare reference (I can assure you I'm not normally that obnoxious, having an off day) anyway, the question is do you use Mercury Vapour bulbs for your monitors or not? Now I know that whole prey like rodents are rich in D3 so a lot of people don't use UV for bigger monitors but what about the dwarfs. I keep ackies, tristis, kimberley's and storrs and I have always used MV bulbs, I reasoned that an insect diet wasn't going to be rich in vit. D3 and rather than risk overdosing on supplements I'd let the monitors regulate themselves with access to the bulbs. When MV's first came out they were hailed as a cure all, they were supposed to improve colour, health, appetite and breeding all in one go; recently I've seen a lot of negative press surrounding these bulbs i.e eye problems, burns, so what,s the deal with them, does anyone have any good/bad experiences they'd like to share, any studies detailing the UV requirements of dwarf monitors that you are aware of? What about HQI/HQL lighting, are these better/ worse than mercury vapour. Sorry or the long first post but any help/advice you can offer will be appreciated.
Thanks, AJS

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[Dachande]

it's good to converse with another dwarf enthusiast.
i myself have ackies and varanus tristis tristis. do you keep black heads or freckleds?
as far as lighting i use 45-50 watt halogen outdoor floods for all monitors. my tristis are the only ones feeding solely on invertebrate now. everything else gets fuzzy or pinky added to it's diet. they've even had the luxury of some captive bred bearded dragon eggs before (duds).
i also keep an argus monitor. but she's as big as i go. other than that i'm like you, a sucker for odatria. i hope to acquire some storrs and freckleds one day. but then there's always the super sweet kimberlies. but that's gonna take some time.
either way, it is all in preferance with the lighting. if you have the $ and it works then go with it. the halogens are cheaper and i have to go by Lowes to get topsoil anyways.
i haven't heard of the HQI/HQL lighting. and the only way i can think of to burn an monitor in it's cage is to put a heat rock in the cage as the only heat source. with lights they spread the heat out so it's harder for them to get burned. my surface temps hit the 120F up to 130F and air temp is anywhere between 95F-115F. this is done with the halogen outdoor floods and elevated basking spots (ie: rete's stacks and slate piles).

[Pork Chops N' Corn Bread]

Originally Posted by Dachande

it's good to converse with another dwarf enthusiast.
i myself have ackies and varanus tristis tristis. do you keep black heads or freckleds?
as far as lighting i use 45-50 watt halogen outdoor floods for all monitors. my tristis are the only ones feeding solely on invertebrate now. everything else gets fuzzy or pinky added to it's diet. they've even had the luxury of some captive bred bearded dragon eggs before (duds).
i also keep an argus monitor. but she's as big as i go. other than that i'm like you, a sucker for odatria. i hope to acquire some storrs and freckleds one day. but then there's always the super sweet kimberlies. but that's gonna take some time.
either way, it is all in preferance with the lighting. if you have the $ and it works then go with it. the halogens are cheaper and i have to go by Lowes to get topsoil anyways.
i haven't heard of the HQI/HQL lighting. and the only way i can think of to burn an monitor in it's cage is to put a heat rock in the cage as the only heat source. with lights they spread the heat out so it's harder for them to get burned. my surface temps hit the 120F up to 130F and air temp is anywhere between 95F-115F. this is done with the halogen outdoor floods and elevated basking spots (ie: rete's stacks and slate piles).

I guess I could call my baby sav a dwarf for now at only 2'. A must for any monitor keeper is a large colony of non climbing roaches. I use discoids my self. At about 2", they are great for large monitors as well as smaller ones

[AJS]

Hi Dachande, like you say it's always good to speak to another dwarf enthusiast. The reason I posted my question was because I've been reading a lot of Frank Retes posts and he seems to do things exactly the opposite of how I would assume they are done. He comes across as pretty arrogant but you can't argue with his success, and you gotta respect his knowledge. He only uses incandescent bulbs, no real supplementation and gutloads his crickets with layers mash; on the other hand I thought UV was important, regularly supplement and love coming up with different gutload recipes filled with all kinds of health foods and organics, in short the type of person FR disdains. O.K my monitors are all doing good, and as they say if it aint broke don't fix it, but evidence linking ActiveUV to retinal damage is worrying. HQIU/HQL lights are metal halide(I think) not mercury vapour (like ActiveUV) they are very popular in mainland Europe, not sure of the differences between the two types though. You mention Kimberley's in your post, have you ever thought about Pilbara Rock Monitors, the most awesome species in an already amazing genus, smaller than Kimm's, but hardier with so much energy you wonder if they got a secret supply of amphetamines stashed away somewhere! And what about Twilight Monitors? These are my fantasy monitors, just don't know if anyone has them outside Australia, seen a few rumours but no hard evidence of any one having them.
By the way I've got Blackheads not Freckled.
PorkChops thanks for the tip about roaches, I breed Lobsters and Lateralis myself and my monitors love them! (Eventhough Frank Retes disapproves of their use)
Thanks for taking the time to reply guys, PP

[Pork Chops N' Corn Bread]

Originally Posted by AJS

Hi Dachande, like you say it's always good to speak to another dwarf enthusiast. The reason I posted my question was because I've been reading a lot of Frank Retes posts and he seems to do things exactly the opposite of how I would assume they are done. He comes across as pretty arrogant but you can't argue with his success, and you gotta respect his knowledge. He only uses incandescent bulbs, no real supplementation and gutloads his crickets with layers mash; on the other hand I thought UV was important, regularly supplement and love coming up with different gutload recipes filled with all kinds of health foods and organics, in short the type of person FR disdains. O.K my monitors are all doing good, and as they say if it aint broke don't fix it, but evidence linking ActiveUV to retinal damage is worrying. HQIU/HQL lights are metal halide(I think) not mercury vapour (like ActiveUV) they are very popular in mainland Europe, not sure of the differences between the two types though. You mention Kimberley's in your post, have you ever thought about Pilbara Rock Monitors, the most awesome species in an already amazing genus, smaller than Kimm's, but hardier with so much energy you wonder if they got a secret supply of amphetamines stashed away somewhere! And what about Twilight Monitors? These are my fantasy monitors, just don't know if anyone has them outside Australia, seen a few rumours but no hard evidence of any one having them.
By the way I've got Blackheads not Freckled.
PorkChops thanks for the tip about roaches, I breed Lobsters and Lateralis myself and my monitors love them! (Eventhough Frank Retes disapproves of their use)
Thanks for taking the time to reply guys, PP

The thing about lobsters is they climb. My monitor hits the discoid before they get moving on the ground. I just perfer not having to worry about any stray roaches. Even though they won't infest. I still have problems with roaches running around in the house

[AJS]

Yeah I know what you mean about the lobster roaches are a royal pain, shares in bug barricade must have gone through the roof since I started breeding them(I can get through a ton of the stuff like you wouldn't believe!)
The lateralis are worse though

[NicoleRussell]

I could go off about UVB but suffice to say that if you buy from reptile uv.com and call before ordering--explaining your cage setup and species, you will get a free uv consult and find out exactly where to place your bulbs and which to buy.
The problem with MVBs and the general public is lack of education.
Any bulb can damage an animal if placed by someone who does not know any better. Either by purchasing too strong a bulb or (more often) buying one that is not strong enough...owners have been known to damage or kill their animals.
Always start with a great company and a knowledgable teacher and you will do great with indoor lighting.

	Ultra Violet Radiation B Ultra Violet Radiation B

[Dachande]

i stick with what works and has proven effective. the outdoor halogen floods work for me. and should not cause the retinal damage you speak of.
i have spoken/met with breeders who do many things differently. some only provide soil in a nest box, however their specific type of caging system is different from average monitor keepers as well. one such used breeding racks with nesting boxes and has had tremendous success with ackies, and the tristis complex as well as pilbaras and kimberlies.
when it comes to gutloading insects i mainly use carrots and mustard greens. both have good amounts of calcium and the greens from both carrots and mustard greens are offered to my dragon. also carrots dry up and do not rot. i offer very little greens to ensure all is eaten.
i also have a theory that could be wrong but here it goes;
most reptiles needing specific lighting feed on greens or a mixed diet. dragons, iguanas, tortoises and even chameleons either consume or occassionally take foliage. there is something about vegetation that hinders the release of calcium and distribution of D3. so if correct, this would explain why monitors (even primarily inectivores) don't require any special lighting, only supplementation. this especially applies to adults who can consume small vertebrate prey and access D3 through the liver, much like snakes.
lighting can affect behavior, this is true. butthey generally don'y need it for survival. quality of light can have them behaving a little different. but they won't die do to lack of certain UV rays.

now my question(s) for you is what substrate do you use with the youing black heads. i'm having trouble with one getting dirt in it's eye. i have medicated it and it seems to be doing well. i have recently switched it onto paper towels and slate to eliminate any loose substrate. the other however is doing fine on soil and thriving. no complications at all and is still in the original set up.
the other question is do you have any pics of your odatria?

[AJS]

Interesting theory about the herbivorous lizards and calcium d3 metabolism, never thought about it like that myself but it makes sense. People can debate the why of things for ages, but if you look at actualities (in this case which lizards benefit most from d3) and try to look for common factors you are doing what good keepers do, responding to the animals not what you found in some book, hmm, very interesting indeed. AS

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[AJS]

I keep my tristis on a 50/50 mix of topsoil and decomposed granite, I,ve never had the problem you mention, but then my tritis seem to spend more time in their branches or under bark than they do burrowing in the substrate.
Have you thought about coir as a temporary solution? It's probably unsuitable(certainly not natural) but it is dust free and keeps it structure. Other than that how about wetting the medium slightly and patting it down to compact it a little. I know these aren't great solutions but I've never had this problem so I can't comment from personal experience. I'd love to be able to post pics of my collection but I can barely operate my computer on the most basic level, let alone the photoshop program.
Hope you sort out your substrate issues.
Thanks, AJS

[NicoleRussell]

Everyone has an opinion on this --and certainly yours is popular among monitor enthusiasts..but mine is rather simple.
Since we don't know anything absolutely, and more and more facts come to light all the time---and, since they do get UVB in the wild...it seems simpler to provide it then not to. You're spending the cash to run a certain wattage bulb, you might as well add what they would be getting in their natural habitat, therefore providing them with something that may contribute to their overall quality of life.
Just another view.
Remember, it was just a few months ago that we all thought monitors did not produce venom. It was only years ago heat rocks were a staple in collections, and those vita - garbage bulbs were the ultimate in UVB.
Things change. Thoughts change.
And the only thing that seems to remain constant is that the more we mimic what they would have in nature, the better off we are.

	Ultra Violet Radiation B Ultra Violet Radiation B

[Pork Chops N' Corn Bread]

Originally Posted by NicoleRussell

Everyone has an opinion on this --and certainly yours is popular among monitor enthusiasts..but mine is rather simple.
Since we don't know anything absolutely, and more and more facts come to light all the time---and, since they do get UVB in the wild...it seems simpler to provide it then not to. You're spending the cash to run a certain wattage bulb, you might as well add what they would be getting in their natural habitat, therefore providing them with something that may contribute to their overall quality of life.
Just another view.
Remember, it was just a few months ago that we all thought monitors did not produce venom. It was only years ago heat rocks were a staple in collections, and those vita - garbage bulbs were the ultimate in UVB.
Things change. Thoughts change.
And the only thing that seems to remain constant is that the more we mimic what they would have in nature, the better off we are.

GREAT POST NICOLE!!!! I never supply a uvb bulb at all but I may start doing so for this winter. T has a 100 flood light that hangs about 2' above his basking spot. It helps heat the basking spot up to about 120-130 range and helps keep the ambient temps up

	Ultra Violet Radiation B Ultra Violet Radiation B

[Dachande]

shouldn't we provide UV bulbs for tokays and leopard geckos then? even though nocturnal, my geckos do come out during daylight hours.
also, monitors spend alot of time in burrows or logs and rock crevices. they will hide if still able to keep that desired temperature. snakes require no UV either, and have some of the same basking methods as most monitors. stay warm, and stay hidden. dawn and dusk you may see some risky animals basking in the wide open.
now there is something to the behavior and color to UV bulbs. but i have raised healthy monitors on the halogen floods.
basically my take on UV bulbs is

either way, it is all in preferance with the lighting. if you have the $ and it works then go with it. the halogens are cheaper and i have to go by Lowes to get topsoil anyways.

true new info is always coming out. recently i read that savannah monitors feed alot more in the wild on large insects than mammal prey. i can see this because large insects offered to the rescues i've had, well let's just say they devastated my hisser colonies. and they are quite fond of emperor scorpions too. so it could be found that it does benefit them but for captive survival they don't require it. i could see it being most beneficial when young but once vertebrate prey is offered through fuzzy and up, it is not a necessity.

oh and PCnCB- the 100 watt flood could be responsible for the loss of humidity that is leading to retained shed. take it down a notch and elevate the basking area so he can get closer to the bulb. this plus a few more bags of soil and that should get humidity right. this is the reason i use the 45-50 wattt floods. high wattage bulbs tend to dry it up faster.

and i try to use the term -mildly venomous-. some get the wrong idea. i'm sure you know what i mean by this. many are quick to jump to conclusions. when in reality a bee sting is more toxic than a bite.

"thank you. but i prefer it my way" -Andre Baptiste Sr; Lord of War

[NicoleRussell]

Geckos are night dwellers...but even so there are some that still feel a day cycle with UVB is important. I do not feel the same way.
I do feel though, that any animal awake primarily during the day --who basks in the sun should get the same in captivity, or as close to it as possible.
I do not for a second feel that mine opinion overides yours on this though. I think it's debatable.
As far as basking spots...you should bring the spot up within range in whichever means you will. They will not get much humidity on that spot no matter what you do. Most burrowing animals will soak up the humidity in the substrate when they are buried.

	Ultra Violet Radiation B Ultra Violet Radiation B

[Dachande]

true, the day geckos (as with the name) are diurnal and do require full spectrum UV rays. but they are also geckos that feed on a mix of insect and fruit or nectar. this is also why i feel tegus should have full spectrum at least through juvenile to subadult years. at this time most protein is coming from insects. but once big enough to devour mice, UV is not mandatory because D3 is acquired through vertebrate organs.
there is one monitor that will occassionally take fruit. but near impossible to acquire in captivity. in it's case i would think it's important to provide a good UV source.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[NicoleRussell]

my tegus get the very best in UVB---but they are argentines...and I firmly believe that with argentine BW's or Reds--UVB is very important. Some argue about Columbians not needing it (I have no direct experience with columbians) but argentines tend to get tremors and other problems when not given proper uvr.

	Ultra Violet Radiation B Ultra Violet Radiation B

[amercnwmn]

Originally Posted by Dachande

i'm having trouble with one getting dirt in it's eye. i have medicated it and it seems to be doing well. i have recently switched it onto paper towels and slate to eliminate any loose substrate. the other however is doing fine on soil and thriving. no

I have a few questions
FIRST: What did you use in your lizards eye? My water dragon had the same thing happen! I rinsed it with bottled water and I know I got the crap out, but he wouldnt open THAT eye untill I changed the substrate. Now both eyes opening..But I liked the dirt better and I want to go back to it, it held humidity and looked great!

SECOND: Outdoor Halogens..do you actually use those to heat? I tried them and they didnt even get hot? What brand are you using??..I had a 75W I also use a UTH and UVA/UVB light (IN the cage)

THIRD: Ackies..I wanna know EVERYTHING lol..My hubby looked at a Sav, and he didnt like the way they look when they got bigger (wants a smaller monitor) and heard they are a little harder (tempermentwise) to deal with..
He likes the Ackies, so I want to try to find what I can about them from people who actually have them...Anyways since I will be the one taking care of the monitor, I need to know any info you can give me LOL (for example: how to apply a tourniquet for after i get bit )

	Under Tank Heater Under Tank Heater

[Adrya]

I would think all monitors of any kind would benifit from UV.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[AJS]

Hey amercnwmn in response to your question about ackies, I am by no means an authority but I can offer the following advice. First, enclosure size, many people suggest 4' x 2' as a good size for a pair, and maybe it is, but I would be happier with 6' x 2'. With regards to substrate, a minimum of 12", some people never see their ackies dig but most of them go nuts burrowing if given the opportunitiy. Many monitors seem to occur in areas of poor soil quality so something like 50/50 decomposed granite/ poor quality topsoil is good. Decomposed granite has it critics but it tends to hold burrows really well. Do you know what a retes stack is? Basically it s a series of plywood boards one on top of the other with about a 3/4" gap between sheets, this simulates rock crevices where they would hide, and although it wasn't designed with ackies in mind they use them. Shine the basking light on top of this and then the ackie can select from the different levels which temperature it is most comfortable with (pro exotics has a good description on their site or google "retes stacks") Temperature wise you want basking surface temp of about 150 degrees grading down to 75 degress on the cool side. In order to get these temps you should use several 50 - 75 watt incandescent floods, higher wattages cause burns so be careful. Some people don't like halogen lights for that same reason, they focus light too intensely and can cause burns (never seen this myself, but better safe than sorry) As far as uv goes you're on your own, way too much controversy over that one, it's certainly not vital, but might improve quality of life in some unknown way. Ventilation, don't go overboard here (no screen tops!) ackies have a relatively low body mass in relation to the environment and can dehydrate very quickly, you can create a moist microclimate on the lower levels of your retes stack. They are arid land species but humidity should be about 50-60%. Diet wise lots of crickets, some people don't like roaches for dwarf monitors, but if you feed many smaller ones instead of a few larger roaches you should'nt have any problems, occasional fuzzy mice. Feed them every day/ every other day, these guys can really pack the food away.
Other than that, just go for it you won't be disappointed these little guys have bags of personality and will keep you constantly entertained.
Thanks, AJS

[AJS]

Back to the debate on the need for UV. I think we can all agree that it is not vital, but do you think that the potential benefits of uv outway the negatives. I was speaking to someone on a dutch moniotr forum who stopped using uv because research done in zoos had established a link between this type of light and retinal damage. Previously I ahd always been of the opinion that monitors would be exposed to some uv in the wild ( a recent study in the uk showed how uv meters gave respectable readings in the shade, and thats with our weather, imagine what it's like in Australia). Also, I reasoned that if it could further enhance their quality of life and encourage natural behaviour then it was all for the good, but the potential for damage is worrying. Do you think that this is just a consequence of incorrect use of the equipment? Also, does eveyone feel that exposure to uv does serve to enhance the captive environment, improving certain indefinable parameters that benefit the monitors?
Thanks, AJS

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters