Striped Spider

[SteveJor]

Originally Posted by BlackLava

wow thats an awesome spider! is it a genetic stripe spider? or just a crazy looking spider?

It's a genetic stripe.
His father produced 2 clutches of stripes with 2 different females.

[Mike Schultz]

Originally Posted by John_White

The snake is nice looking. However, knowingly propagating an animal with genetic neurological disorders is a disservice to the species and just plain wrong.

How about propagating species with pigment disorders... that's wrong too, right?

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[Mike Schultz]

Originally Posted by SteveJor

It's a genetic stripe.
His father produced 2 clutches of stripes with 2 different females.

Is it really a genetic stripe spider or is it a striped spider that has striped siblings???

The g-stripe spiders i've seen dont look quite like that!

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[Mike Schultz]

Originally Posted by nitram

another thing i find interesting is most morphs that are mixed with spiders (bumblebees, lesserbees, killerbees, pewterbees, etc.) dont show the same symptoms as plain jane spiders. at least not that ive heard of. if anyone has heard something about this i'd like to know.

My bee tries to tie knots in himself sometimes but he eats, grows, and breeds well and generally thrives

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[SteveJor]

Originally Posted by Breed and Feed

Is it really a genetic stripe spider or is it a striped spider that has striped siblings???

The g-stripe spiders i've seen dont look quite like that!

It's a genetic stripe spider. No g-stripe in it.
This is a new dominant spider morph.
Works similiar to the motley gene in boas. Some are regular spiders, some are striped patternless spiders. Striped spider x striped spider hasn't been done yet so I don't know what that outcome would look like.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[SteveJor]

They also have a solid white belly without the typical spider flecking on it.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[John_White]

Originally Posted by Breed and Feed

How about propagating species with pigment disorders... that's wrong too, right?

There is no need, other than greed, to produce any "pet" animal that may have a condition which adversely affects its quality of life. If the "pigment disorder" adversely affected the quality of life for the pet, then yes it is wrong in my opinion.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[Mike Schultz]

Originally Posted by John_White

There is no need, other than greed, to produce any "pet" animal that may have a condition which adversely affects its quality of life. If the "pigment disorder" adversely affected the quality of life for the pet, then yes it is wrong in my opinion.

Well none of us can really tell whether or not any of these genes adversely affect our snakes' quality of life... obviously the kinked caramels and eyeless albino boas shouldn't be bred.

But in ball pythons, when the simplest little stress factor will cause a feeding strike, I would think that the snake isn't affected by the wobbling issue when they are pounding rats every 4 days

And i've said it before, if we were in it for "greed" we would definitely have chosen a better industry than reptiles. The best way to make yourself a small fortune is to take a large fortune and invest it in ball pythons...

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[John_White]

You're correct in that we don't have a definitive standard on which to judge a reptile's quality of life. But it is my opinion that the head wobble, cork screwing and other symptoms of neurological disorders associated with spider balls adversely affects their quality of life.

This may be anthropomorphic, but this guy has lived with and without the symptoms of a neurological disorder. He ate before the symptoms and I assume he eats now, but I'm positive that his quality of life has decreased.

YouTube - EXCLUSIVE: Michael J. Fox Talks To Katie Couric re Rush L

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[SteveJor]

You can't compare a snake to a human.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[John_White]

Of course you can, to some degree. All air-breathing, vertebrate animals have certain characteristics in common.

Would you agree that the neurological disorders associated with spider balls does nothing to improve the species?

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[SteveJor]

Originally Posted by John_White

Of course you can, to some degree. All air-breathing, vertebrate animals have certain characteristics in common.

Would you agree that the neurological disorders associated with spider balls does nothing to improve the species?

As long as you selectively breed ones that are not showing signs of the wobble, there is nothing wrong with it.
Certain ones should not be bred but others can be.
You cannot generalize all spiders into the same category of spinning and say they all have a reduced quality of life.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[John_White]

Isn't it true that all spiders produced to date show some symptoms of neurological disorders? If this is still correct, then all spider can be placed into the same category.

Selectively breeding pet animals to satisfy the esthetics of humans with complete disregard of what it does to the animal is simply wrong.

If there are completely normal, neurological disorder free, spider balls that produce healthy, neurological disorder free, offspring then their is no issue. However, to my knowledge this is not the case.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[nitram]

spiders that show subtle signs of the wobble can produce babies with a heavy spinning disorder, its my understanding they all carry it.
what i think is wrong is that you're automatically signing off the spider with some kind of reduced quality of life when that simply is not the case. if there's a scientific analysis on the matter proving that spiders are somehow "less than" i'd like to see it. i take your opinion as an observation, it doesnt look normal, i agree with it. but is their health affected by it? i dont think so. and i think their health is what overall makes up this so called "quality of life", correct me if im wrong.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[John_White]

Yes, I'm against any selective breeding of pets that produce substandard animals.

Originally Posted by nitram

... but is their health affected by it? i dont think so.

OK if I follow your logic, why even produce animals with disorders that make their quality of life questionable? Wouldn't it be better to produce animals without inherent genetic defects?

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[nitram]

maybe when NERD starting producing them there was little or no signs of the disorder when it broke out it was too late they were everywhere now. this is a story i made up, as i do not have the answer to the question.
its probably reproduced continuously with this disorder because people do not consider this a problem. i sure dont.
neither do the countless people that own spiders. in fact only person i've seen speak against them is you.
id see where greed can play a role in this, but at 200 bucks a spider, youd think greed would play a bigger role somewhere else. figure you got 6 eggs, 3 are spiders, thats nothing youd be making on the gene. maybe a few years ago when spiders were actually worth something with 3 digits after it you can say greed plays a plausable role, but now i just dont see it.
i dont question the animals health, as it acts just like my other snakes, wobble and all.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[John_White]

This is the main reason breeders don't have a problem:

Normal color ball python = $30
"Spider" ball python = $300

Figure an average offspring of six.
The normal ball's offspring are worth $180.
The spider ball's offspring are worth $1,800.

Both have the same overhead cost (housing, feeding etc..) but the spider ball gives the breeder ten times more on his investment over the normal colored python. Even if only half the clutch were spiders it would still make the total clutch worth $990 which is over five times more profitable than the completely normal clutch.

I think it is crystal clear that an increased profit margin is one of the main reasons breeders produce spiders. It is certainly not because they are trying to improve the species.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[Sakara]

spiders are deff. not $300 anymore, LOL... at least not most places O_o you can get spider balls for like $100-$150 a lot of places

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[spix14]

Originally Posted by nitram

maybe when NERD starting producing them there was little or no signs of the disorder when it broke out it was too late they were everywhere now. this is a story i made up, as i do not have the answer to the question.
its probably reproduced continuously with this disorder because people do not consider this a problem. i sure dont.
neither do the countless people that own spiders. in fact only person i've seen speak against them is you.
id see where greed can play a role in this, but at 200 bucks a spider, youd think greed would play a bigger role somewhere else. figure you got 6 eggs, 3 are spiders, thats nothing youd be making on the gene. maybe a few years ago when spiders were actually worth something with 3 digits after it you can say greed plays a plausable role, but now i just dont see it.
i dont question the animals health, as it acts just like my other snakes, wobble and all.

Are you taking into account all the other morphs that can be made with spiders?

Personally I'd never own a spider or any offshoot morph of one because ethically I don't believe in breeding animals with genetic defaults. Quality of life is questionable, maybe they're perfectly happy to be spinning and wobbling all over the place. Maybe not. No one seems to argue quality of life when snakes with IBD start displaying the same behaviors spiders do.

But, my ethics are mine and I'm not going to shove them onto other people (mostly because I'd be wasting my time anyway).

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

	Inclusion Body Disease IBD

[Sakara]

there is a HUGE difference between IBD symptoms and spider wobbling... an IBD infected snake can't eat... they can't control ANYTHING they do.. and it is a TERRIBLE thing to see...

My spider can eat, drink, cruise, and hardly ever wobbles anymore...

to compare the 2 obviously shows that you have not seen both in person... there is a 100% difference

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

	Inclusion Body Disease IBD