Exotic imports [debate]

[bensnacks]

On request by Jules to promote 'discussion'.
I would like to bring up one of my pet topics and
ask if anyone could give me a plausible reason as to
why the practice of the importation of ANY exotic animals
(including herps) should continue.

Thanks for contributing,
Ben

[Ed_r]

Where ya been Ben? It's been kinda boring without your downunder points of view.

The real ONLY reasons to export animals is for species preservation. If there are only a handful of a certain species, then I can see exporting some animals to improve the gene pool. This should really only happen for professional institutions such as zoos.

On a selfish note, and I see ALL private keepers to be selfish. Exportation would also ensure fresh gene pools. Also if done properly Locality specific animals can be captured and kept records of to help the interbreeding problems some species have. Unfortunately when exporting also comes the deseases crossing bounderies.

My fealing on exporting animals really varies by species. Should Ball Pythons be allowed to be exported anymore? NO way!!!, there are plenty of different gene pools to support captive breeding pretty much forever. On much rarer species in collections I see some exporting as necessary. I think even Bearded Dragons are starting to show signs of having a small original gene pool to do captive breeding from. Again on this I'm mostly speaking in the personal collections, and also a somewhat selfish outlook, becaus do we REALLY need to have these animals in the private sector?

[Vegetatoboaotaku]

Sorta, kinda OT...

do we REALLY need to have these animals in the private sector?

yes....
What would I blow my entire paycheck on otherwise? What would absorb all free time? What would be the reason I still talk to other human beings? The whole hobby has only done unbelievably good things for me...
I need it... *sniffle*

[Ed_r]

Some like to say that importing gives new blood to captive propagation. Well F that. There is tons of new blood available to most breeders at another breeder

While with Most captive species i would totally agree with you. But with others, say Black head Pythons, Womas, Angolan Pythons and Green Tree Pythons, there are actually VERY limited diversity outside of their native areas. Even getting them from other breeders is most of the time getting the same original exports. Unfortunately I can see the BHP and Womas, seriously dropping in captive health due to un-intentional inbreeding. This will happen because people will be buying from breeders, that got their breeders from the same people. It's a very close knit circle.

You can see this happening with Bearded Dragons, some health issues are poping up in the captive sector, tumors, cancer, and other ailments.

[Ed_r]

I truthfully meant the species where captive propigation is very rampid, ie: atb's, bp's, BCI and BCC, etc

I agree with you 100% there is absolutely no reason to import these species anymore.

if they are so rare, do they belong in private collections? Just MHO.

That kinda gets back to my original thought, about us being somewhat selfish in keeping these animals in private collections. To me the extremely rare species have as much of a place in private collections as do RTBs and BPs. In reality does a RTB REALLY belong in a private collection? Yes we all love our pets, and I'm as guilty as the rest on this.

It's a huge double edged sword on this. Are the animals better off in a private collection, or in the wild? Now REALLY think about it.

In the wild, food isn't as plentiful, they are predated, they are hunted for their skin or meat, Survival to full adulthood is about 1% on the Pro side of being in the wild...FREEDOM.

In Captivity Food is always available, Your not predated or hunted, You may or may not get to breed, Survival to full adult hood is raised to maybe 70%. The con to this... Your kept in a small box for all of your life, never knowing what true freedom is.

Which is better? Of course WE think captivity is.

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor Red Tail Boa Constrictor (Boa constictor constrictor). Refers to "true" red tail boas such as the Guyana and Suriname locales.

	Boa Constrictor Imperator Boa Constrictor (Boa constrictor imperator). Most common is the Colombian Boa.

	Amazon Tree Boa Amazon Tree Boa - The Amazon tree boa, Corallus hortulanus, is a close relative of the Emerald tree boa (Corallus caninus)

[bensnacks]

B.M. I'm not only asking about W.C. imports but also C.B.'s.
Can the practice of the importation of 'C.B.' animals be justified also??

[Ed_r]

Can the practice of the importation of 'C.B.' animals be justified also??

Interesting spin Ben. I think it very well COULD be justified, but would have to be highly controled. Many places have Huge problems with feral animals that either escape or are released and decimate the local ecology.

I would think as a keeper, there would have to be the responsability of providing proper environment for the animals. Just as an example a BCI in OZ would have some dificulties during the extreme summer months, if air conditioning isnt available. There would have to be a way to have the keeper accountable for the animals care, and of course its wherabouts.

	Boa Constrictor Imperator Boa Constrictor (Boa constrictor imperator). Most common is the Colombian Boa.

[telefrag]

I dont think I have time, nor the space in a post to give all of my takes on it.



I think collection for the pet trade pails in contrast to collection for the food/leather trade, and you can probably significantly increase those numbers when you factor in habitat destruction and modification.

On one token, importation and captive propagation is the only chance for some species to make it into the future.
But on another token, what is to say that those species are meant to survive?
Species go extinct often without any help from the human species, maybe some animals just arent meant to continue on.

We really shouldnt keep any animal in captivity , if you want to look at it from moral points of view.
Honestly, most of us keep animals for selfish reasons (myself included), what really gives us the right?

Nothing really, but when did something not being right keep us from doing it?

I could live without my herps, and go strictly to field observation only,(while there is still field left that is)
I expect my currently collection (some of my animals are entering their golden years) will die off, and I wont replace them.

I dont ever see an end to the herp trade, but its up to us to make wise choices in what we purchase, and who we support in this "industry".

[haroldo359]

i agree with most of what has been said here. i want to say this, though. i see everyone's point that we are selfish to keep herps as pets. but really, we are the highest form of life on the planet. my point is, it is sort of stupid to dwell on the ethics of keeping snakes in a cage (at a high quality of life and preserved from the destruction of the planet we are rolling right along with) and not worry about killing 40 billions chickens a day to eat (hyperbole) and driving around all day in cars destroying the air. yeah, we are selfish, but for alot of reasons. and taking endangered animals and selling them at flea markets aside, i think people who buy and care for these animals for the pure love of them can save themselves from losing sleep over it.

[Ed_r]

I don't think we are evil for it. I suppose we actually are doing the animals some good.

I think Ben's reason for this post is, since he is in Oz, they can't have Boas there. Should such animals be allowed to be imported to OZ, and of course vice versa with some of the OZ pythons, as well as other parts of the world.

Hard to justify it. So many strong arguements not to justify it. I personally can, but that doesnt mean anything.

[haroldo359]

i completely understand ED. i know regulations such as this are important and have their place. i don't agree with most of the herp laws here in GA, but i am glad they aren't as strict as some places.

[Ravnos]

With some species, like burmese pythons - the captive born market has pretty much flooded out the imports. Its just not worth the effort to import them anymore. Other species like green iguanas and ball pythons are "farm raised", which isn't much better than being wild caught, but at least they are still reproducing under somewhat of a human hand and the majority aren't being plucked directly from their native habitat - except to replace breeders in these so-called farms.

Really though, look at some species from Australia, like carpet pythons - what we know as the various subspecies of carpet pythons in the US market is almost ridiculous compared to what the actual Australian species are. The genetic diversity of the species is relatively low, and has most recently (last 10 years or so) been supplimented with wild stock from New Guinea and the like. If it weren't for smugglers, things like Bearded Dragons probably wouldn't even be in the US market right now - at least not in the numbers we see today.

Regulations are important, genetic diversity is also important to maintain a healthy captive stock. Feral animals are another big threat to current importation trends. So there are other factors working against the pet trade, not just the fact that animals are being pulled from the wild in incredible numbers.

Sorry for jumping around... thoughts kind of erratic tonight.

Rav

	Iguana Iguana