Firearms / Hunting Thread - Page 8

Ranger · #**141** (**permalink**) 06-21-2009, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-Factor

If you MUST use your gun in self defense (or defense of others), either kill the threat or don't hit him at all. Wounding him could open you up to legal troubles.

That's where "shoot to stop" comes in. You only ever employ deadly force if you believe that you or a third party are in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death, and then you shoot until that threat doesn't exist anymore.

That generally means the assailant is dead, incapacitated, or is fleeing or surrendering. When you are no longer in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death, you generally are no longer justified to employ deadly force.

Don't shoot to kill. Don't shoot to wound. Definitely don't fire "warning shots." Shoot to stop the immediate threat of great bodily harm or death.

Also, if you have a concealed carry permit, you should carry the contact information of a (trusted) criminal defense attorney with you at all times. You never know when an overzealous or uninformed LEO may decide you're a criminal.

X-Factor · #**142** (**permalink**) 06-21-2009, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger

That's where "shoot to stop" comes in. You only ever employ deadly force if you believe that you or a third party are in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death, and then you shoot until that threat doesn't exist anymore.

That generally means the assailant is dead, incapacitated, or is fleeing or surrendering. When you are no longer in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death, you generally are no longer justified to employ deadly force.

Don't shoot to kill. Don't shoot to wound. Definitely don't fire "warning shots." Shoot to stop the immediate threat of great bodily harm or death.

Also, if you have a concealed carry permit, you should carry the contact information of a (trusted) criminal defense attorney with you at all times. You never know when an overzealous or uninformed LEO may decide you're a criminal.

Ranger IMO you DO shoot to kill. Shooting to wound opens you up to a lawsuit by the "victim" of your shooting. Obviously warning shots are a bad idea so we agree there. How else would you eliminate the threat? If you have a legitimate self defense situation you shoot as few times as possible in such a way as he does NOT get back up. "Better be judged by 12 than carried by 6." At least, that's what we are advised here in the communist state of Maryland. You are certainly correct about the contact info for a lawyer being kept on your person when you are CCW.

Of course, the best scenario is you don't have to fire a shot. If you break into my house you will leave head first or cuffed. I'd rather not shoot you but if I do you won't survive.

Icicle · #**143** (**permalink**) 06-21-2009, 12:47 AM

I'm going to go

for a second or two. do any of you kind people need a bullet proof vest? if so please pm me.

Back on topic.
didn't they used to make a special round for the ladies in law enforcement that split up into mutiply rounds for more stopping power.

X-Factor · #**144** (**permalink**) 06-21-2009, 01:00 AM

Never heard of that...though there are rounds that are sort of like buckshot if that's what you are referring to.

Check your PMs

Ranger · #**145** (**permalink**) 06-21-2009, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-Factor

Ranger IMO you DO shoot to kill. Shooting to wound opens you up to a lawsuit by the "victim" of your shooting.

Absolutely X! Shoot till the threat is no longer a threat. If the threat turns and runs, you better not keep shooting, because the entry wounds in the back are inviting prosecution.

When interviewed by the detectives, my statement will be, "I kept shooting until he stopped attacking me." That's what I mean by "shoot to stop." Shoot till the threat is neutralized. If you're shooting C.O.M., that probably equals death, but I would never want to be perceived as employing excessive force, hence, no "shoot to wound," no coup de grace, no shooting at a fleeing perp (once he's fleeing, the imminent threat is over).

"Officer, he was coming at me with that knife and I kept shooting until he stopped coming at me." Dead=stopped. Incapacitated=stopped. Fleeing=stopped. The threat to me has been stopped, so I stop shooting. I shot to stop the threat.

There's a pharmacist awaiting trial right now because after he "stopped" the armed robber, he emptied the mag into him on the ground. Should I say, ex-pharmacist, future convict? The robbery was on video. Finishing off the robber ended the pharmacist's life as he knew it. Killing an incapacitated or fleeing aggressor opens you up to both prosecution and wrongful death suits by the family of the dead criminal.

When the threat is over, so is the right to use deadly force. All that being said, shoot serious ammo, in a serious caliber, and shoot C.O.M.

Ranger · #**146** (**permalink**) 06-21-2009, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-Factor

Never heard of that...though there are rounds that are sort of like buckshot if that's what you are referring to.
Check your PMs

Frangibles?

Icicle · #**147** (**permalink**) 06-21-2009, 01:38 AM

Ranger, what is C.O.M.?

LdyDrgn · #**148** (**permalink**) 06-21-2009, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-Factor

("you" being general, not "you" LdyDrgn)

It's all good, X... I'm sure if you were directing at me, you would boldly say so.

So yeah... I did good today. That's all I'll say about that.

Ranger · #**149** (**permalink**) 06-21-2009, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icicle

Ranger, what is C.O.M.?

Center Of Mass. Whatever position the target is in, you aim for the center of that mass. On an upright human, it represents the spinal column (central nervous system=instant incapacitation) and heart/lung area.

If someone is angled toward you, you put the front sight on the center of whatever profile is presented to you and fire.

As X was saying, if you try to explain that you were trying to shoot someone in the shoulder, or leg, you get sued, because if there was cause to use deadly force, why were you trying to maim someone?

But standard military and police training is to shoot for the center of mass (torso). It's the biggest target and holds stuff you can't function without.

Icicle · #**150** (**permalink**) 06-21-2009, 01:55 AM

Ranger, after you nicely explained it to me I feel like an idiot. I been around guns all of my life, and there are just some things that slip our minds with older age. dang thats bad for only being 36.

X-Factor · #**151** (**permalink**) 06-21-2009, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger

Absolutely X! Shoot till the threat is no longer a threat. If the threat turns and runs, you better not keep shooting, because the entry wounds in the back are inviting prosecution.

When interviewed by the detectives, my statement will be, "I kept shooting until he stopped attacking me." That's what I mean by "shoot to stop." Shoot till the threat is neutralized. If you're shooting C.O.M., that probably equals death, but I would never want to be perceived as employing excessive force, hence, no "shoot to wound," no coup de grace, no shooting at a fleeing perp (once he's fleeing, the imminent threat is over).

"Officer, he was coming at me with that knife and I kept shooting until he stopped coming at me." Dead=stopped. Incapacitated=stopped. Fleeing=stopped. The threat to me has been stopped, so I stop shooting. I shot to stop the threat.

There's a pharmacist awaiting trial right now because after he "stopped" the armed robber, he emptied the mag into him on the ground. Should I say, ex-pharmacist, future convict? The robbery was on video. Finishing off the robber ended the pharmacist's life as he knew it. Killing an incapacitated or fleeing aggressor opens you up to both prosecution and wrongful death suits by the family of the dead criminal.

When the threat is over, so is the right to use deadly force. All that being said, shoot serious ammo, in a serious caliber, and shoot C.O.M.

Much clearer.

As far as lawsuits are concerned, I was referring to the suspect suing YOU for injury (probably based on your logic)....heard of it being done. That's why the local PDs here suggest you kill them dead. If they are outside your house, kill them dead and drag them inside. Seriously. That's what they have told me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger

Frangibles?

No shotshells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LdyDrgn

It's all good, X... I'm sure if you were directing at me, you would boldly say so.

So yeah... I did good today. That's all I'll say about that.

Glad you did well. Congrats!

morti · #**152** (**permalink**) 06-23-2009, 02:08 PM

Since we could only fire our 20 rounds each to qualify on Saturday, we still had a bit of the old Gunpowder Fever.

Here is our target for Sunday.

Entry Wounds:

Exit wounds:

telefrag · #**153** (**permalink**) 06-23-2009, 07:17 PM

hahahaha, we used old broke down nokia firewalls for target practice once, sometimes it feels good doesn't it?

Zombi-Hed · #**154** (**permalink**) 06-23-2009, 09:41 PM

Great pics! I worked for Dell on a few different occasions and I'd say that case had it coming.

Ranger · #**155** (**permalink**) 06-23-2009, 11:49 PM

I had a laptop that used to make me consider shooting it.

Amazon · #**156** (**permalink**) 06-24-2009, 12:01 AM

So, I have to say that so far, I have completely disregarded this thread - as I have had nothing to contribute to it. But over the weekend, I went to a shooting range for the first time. It was so much fun!!! I got to shoot a 10-22 (not sure how I'm supposed to write that...), a 257 something or other, and a 300 Winchester magnum. Those last two really have a kick!!!

Apparently I'm not half bad, especially for the first time I ever shot a gun. I shot some staples off of the plywood board that the targets were mounted on with the 10-22, and hit a 2 ft across target with the 257 and 300 from 500 yards... so yeah, that was fun. It was a gong, so you could hear when you hit it!!! Lol, I may have a new (expensive) hobby

Icicle · #**157** (**permalink**) 06-24-2009, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazon

So, I have to say that so far, I have completely disregarded this thread - as I have had nothing to contribute to it. But over the weekend, I went to a shooting range for the first time. It was so much fun!!! I got to shoot a 10-22 (not sure how I'm supposed to write that...), a 257 something or other, and a 300 Winchester magnum. Those last two really have a kick!!!

Apparently I'm not half bad, especially for the first time I ever shot a gun. I shot some staples off of the plywood board that the targets were mounted on with the 10-22, and hit a 2 ft across target with the 257 and 300 from 500 yards... so yeah, that was fun. It was a gong, so you could hear when you hit it!!! Lol, I may have a new (expensive) hobby