Our World Today......

jpaulson · #1 (**permalink**) 02-14-2003, 05:33 AM

Hey gang,

After watching the news just now, the reality of our state of affairs is scary. I just watched our local news station show everyone how to make a "safe room"--duct tape, food, water, flashlights, batteries, radio, clothing, and plastic sheeting. It appears that war is not a "what if", but a "how soon".

As with many of you, I remember the "cold war". Watching "The Day After" with my family, preparing us for nuclear war. Remember the drills at school? Everyone going into a tunnel or something and sitting indian style, hands crossed, head down. It was scary then, but with time, we got through it.

First, it's Bin Laden. Now it's Saddam. Next, it's North Korea. All of this on an already hurting economy. What are your views on this? It is becoming more and more apparent that this will not blow over....this is real, guys..REAL.

I guess I wanted to just open up a general discussion on everyone's views, opinions, feelings, plans, etc.... I will be the first to admit that I am scared ...not for me, but for my children. What kind of future do they have? It seems that the U.S. is making more and more enemies, and getting involved in more world struggles. Once we get through this, (the pessimistic part of me has to say "if&quot

, whats next? Will my children have to live in fear of terrorism the rest of thier lives? Will we get to a point when gas masks will be as common as book-bags? I really don't know.............

For all of those that believe in God, if you haven't prayed yet, you need to. And for those that just believe in a "higher being", pray to them as well.

This is really scary stuff, guys.......

_________________
As seen on a bumper sticker--"My snake ATE your honor roll student"

herp_chick · #2 (**permalink**) 02-14-2003, 05:45 AM

I agree, JP, 100%. and you're right, it's not myself I am afraid for, it's my children. You see new footage of people in 3rd world countries, kids 10 yrs old carrying UZI's, and I DO NOT want that to be my child. Those people have never known peace, and I'm not saying that makes it better, but we have had peace. I think it would be worse to have it and then lose it. I don't want my children to have to live in constant fear, to have no childhood memories that are totally full of Joy. I believe that instead of taking care of everyone else's problems, we should start worrying about the ones right here at home, in America. We send food overseas to people who are starving, and people are starving here everyday. Wesend medicines and money to 3rd world countries to prevent infant mortality rates, but children die here everyday. What about the homeless? The good old USA sure takes care of them, right? It's not that I do not have sympathy for all the 3rd world situations I just mentioned, but how can you take care of others if you can't take care of your own? And how long will it be before we are living like that? Who do you think would help us? NO ONE. Just my .02

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jpaulson · #3 (**permalink**) 02-14-2003, 05:51 AM

We are STILL sending money to Japan for Nagasaki and Hiroshima!!!! So, should we go to war with someone, show them our superior strength, destroy them, THEN pay for them to re-build??!?!
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Ed_r · #4 (**permalink**) 02-14-2003, 06:03 AM

We are way too kind. I hate the fact that we have to go to war only to give American lives, and then repay and rebuild for all the damage that the other country instigated in the first place. We feed and clothe everyone yet We are the evil ones. Yet everyone else that attacks as cowards end up being the heros. I wish we wouldnt pay for it. It almost seems that when these 3rd world countries get too run down, they think hey lets start with the US. We will get blown apart and lose some peasants, but the US will rebuild our country better than ever. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
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Billybob · #5 (**permalink**) 02-15-2003, 04:23 AM

At my school, over the past week we had some exchange students from Austria come. My World History teacher had some of them come in to our class and share thier thoughts about this war from thier perspective. Its very clear that nobody from thier country wants a war, and thier parents and teachers were a little afraid to let them come down here.
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1sttimesnakeowner · #6 (**permalink**) 02-16-2003, 08:51 AM

I really think this is a fake war. There ware way too many questions that need to be asked and no ones asking them. I am pro USA and I know Saddam is evil. I am wondering why Bush is (really) doing this.
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deadboy · #7 (**permalink**) 02-16-2003, 09:46 AM

i second your opinion 1sttimer, i think this is a fake war. Now im sorry for all of you that think Bush is a great president but i personnaly think he is not a good president. He is too worried about oil. What do you think all this is about, it's about the oil. Now im sure there are other reason but i think that is the main issue. Plus i do not think that anyone will be able to reak all the havor that they claim on the US. I think that we would be able to forsee a major attack and somewhat stop it. I mean stuff might happen, but not a lot. This may sound stupid to all of you but it is my opinion.
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ChrisRezendes · #8 (**permalink**) 02-16-2003, 10:39 AM

I found this little song online somewhere that really sums up my feelings on this whole matter. All I have to do now is sit and wait for all the hardcore Republicans to yell at me and call me a bleeding-heart liberal, which is pretty much anyone who disagrees with them.

Sung to "If you're happy and you know it"

If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq.

If we have no allies with us, bomb Iraq.
If we think that someone's dissed us, bomb Iraq.
So to he(ck) with the inspections,
Let's look tough for the elections,
Close your mind and take directions,
Bomb Iraq.

It's pre-emptive non-aggression, bomb Iraq.
To prevent this mass destruction, bomb Iraq.
They've got weapons we can't see,
And that's all the proof we need,
If they're not there, they must be there,
Bomb Iraq.

If you never were elected, bomb Iraq.
If your mood is quite dejected, bomb Iraq.
If you think Saddam's gone mad,
With the weapons that he had,
And he tried to kill your dad,
Bomb Iraq.

If corporate fraud is growin', bomb Iraq.
If your ties to it are showin', bomb Iraq.
If your politics are sleazy,
And hiding that ain't easy,
And your manhood's getting queasy,
Bomb Iraq.

Fall in line and follow orders, bomb Iraq.
For our might knows not our borders, bomb Iraq.
Disagree? We'll call it treason,
Let's make war not love this season,
Even if we have no reason,
Bomb Iraq.
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1sttimesnakeowner · #9 (**permalink**) 02-16-2003, 06:13 PM

I feel the same as the both of you. I voted for Bush.... I at one time was a Republican, no more. Put two parties in control and see what you get. Both are bad. Bush Sr. was the head of the CIA before he was vice pres with Ronnie like 1975. The things I have read about him and Bush Jr make me sick. Anyone got thier hands on H.R.3162???( USA PATRIOT ACT ) I havent read all of it. I have to put it down because I am so mad with what it states. You can do a look up on yahoo. Or look up on www.infowars.com I have more to say but I have to get going. We have to go site in a few of our guns for a hunt next month. Ill be back on tonight.
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schatzie001 · #10 (**permalink**) 02-18-2003, 05:43 AM

Hey, here's a quiz for all of us...How many times has a dictator proven to be benevolent, honest, forthcoming, ?

Um, lemme think, uh Hitler? No
How about Mussolini? No
How about Stalin? No
Castro possibly? No
Pol Pot? No
Saddam? NO

All the people listed above (this is only a partial list) were dictators who killed their own people for speaking out against them, committed atrocities against their OWN people. A dictator is never satisfied. If someone would have stood up to Hitler when he broke the Rhineland treaty, millions of lives would have been saved.

Sure, war is a scary thing. As a veteran, I know the fears our service men and women are facing. We have to all live with the fact that these terrorists want nothing more than to destroy our lives and make us afraid of our own shadows, just because we are Americans.

I for one am not going to let that happen. Sure, I will be more careful of my environment, and my eyes are open wider now but these freaks are not going to make me crawl into a hole.

I also agree that we spend too much helping other countries, just have to have them spit on us when things get hot. I don't need "Fair weather friends", and neither does America.

But if we are going to war, we all have to be strong and support our Country and our brave souls in the armed forces.

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1sttimesnakeowner · #11 (**permalink**) 02-18-2003, 07:08 AM

But if we are going to war, we all have to be strong and support our Country and our brave souls in the armed forces.

No.... No we dont. Not on this war.... Hmmmm Support Bush you mean??? After hearing him speak differnet times and reading, hearing the news. NOT A CHANCE.

If we are not careful we'll have another cold war. If we the people of this great Country do not open our eyes we will lose so much! Too much is on the line for that. I have friends going into that war...... Will they come back? Maybe. If they dont, it was for oil, power, control?
Hmmmm lets rethink this.
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I remember the "cold war". Watching "The Day After" with my family, preparing us for nuclear war. Remember the drills at school? Everyone going into a tunnel or something and sitting indian style, hands crossed, head down. It was scary then, but with time, we got through it.

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This is no different of a time. History repeats itself.
[img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_evil.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_evil.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_evil.gif[/img]
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NYCSpeedcore · #12 (**permalink**) 02-18-2003, 08:22 AM

The one thing I see that some are missing, is that it does not matter if we want war or not, it's not up to us. Even if we back away what they end up wanting to do is what is going to happen. Let's say we decide we don't want war and walk away, is it going to take another few buildings to get us to wage war? I happen to live in NYC, and I see armed solders walking around the city streets and subways. It's a little weird to see guys in full camo guns at hand right next to you at dunkin dounuts... I am a little worried to be honest. I remember looking out my apartment and seeing the smoke from the twin towers, living in this city I know we are a prime target. The last thing I want is war, but at this point I do not know if it is avoidable. I don't know if the country will ever be the same, for once america is not going to be the dream world it has been for so long. Behind my parents house when walking the dog I saw armed guards cruiseing the woods because we live next to a resivor. In my mind they have succeded already, and fear things are going to get worse before they get better.
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Ed_r · #13 (**permalink**) 02-18-2003, 02:24 PM

Chris I couldn't agree more, the song pretty much sums it up.

I for one can't stand Bush. Lets face it he is the first President ever elected that DID NOT have the majority of the popular vote, and the state that put him over the top is the one his brother is Governor of. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
He knows he will NEVER get re-elected on normal terms. Oh BTW the countries economy is not failing!!! Trust me the republican are making a TON of money right now. When we (the little people) get scared and sell all our stocks off at a huge loss, the Republicans buy it up as fast as we sell it. Then when we get sick of it and vote in a Democrat the common people's economy goes way up, and all the stock the Republicans bought up is now worth 50 times what they bought it for. The republicans then gladly sell it off to the common people to let them make a little bit of money, so we can fund the Republicans next run. Who says the Civil War is OVER. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_evil.gif[/img]
I agree Sadam is a total whack job. But its our own fault. He gets a bug up his rump , we go drop some bombs on him, it's a game. Now Georgie boy wants to be the hero saying in not so many words that he wants to take over Iraq. Yes we all know its for the oil, after all it was his life before the politics game. He lost a ton of money in the Enron Scam so it's time to build his retirement back up.
Not sure what the true answer is. Do you take over all your enemies, and make them see things your way, but still have them hate you that you changed their lives? Or do you leave them alone and let them live their psychotic lives and ideas. We have militant groups right here in the US that we cant control, what makes them think they can control anything overseas?
Sometimes I think its time we took all our money out of the failing countries. Yes trust me I'm sure we have money in Iraq and N.Korea and such, and let them see where they would be without our support. You spit on me? Hmmm ok well we don't HAVE to help fund your nation, so we will let you fend for yourself.

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Don't forget REPTILE FEST!!! April 5th and 6th 2003 at the UIC Chicago campus. http://chicagoherp.org/fest/main.htm

najaboy · #14 (**permalink**) 02-18-2003, 07:20 PM

As they say, "Rhose who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it." Saddam's utter disregard for in fulfilling his obligations are comparable to Hitler's contempt for the Versailles Treaty. In Hitler's case, the international community looked the other way.

Is it acceptable that Iraq continue to develop and hide NBC weapons? Is it okay that US & British airmen are fired upon by Iraq on an almost daily basis? Is it okay that Saddam subsidizes terrorism?

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>Lets face it he is the first President ever elected that DID NOT have the majority of the popular vote </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
Ed, Ed, Ed, I'm hoping that you don't actually believe that lie?

Fact: John Quincy Adams received less than a third of the popular vote
Fact: Abraham Lincoln received 40% of the popular vote
Fact: Rutherford B. Hayes received 48% of the popular vote
Fact: Grover Cleveland received 46% of the popular vote
Fact: Benajamin Harrison lost the popular vote.
Fact: Woodrow Wilson received 45% of the popular vote
Fact: Harry Truman received less than half of the popular vote
Fact: Bill Klinton did not have a majority in either the 1992 or 1996 elections

Now, if you meant that he was the first POTUS ever elected that did not receive more popular votes than his opposition, you would also be mistaken. In 1824, Andrew Jackson carried not only the most popular votes, but the most electoral votes. John Quincy Adams won the presidency.

In 1876, Samuel Tilden led Rutheford Hayes substantially in the popular vote. Hayes won the presidency.

In 1888, Benjamin Harrison beat incumbent Grover Cleveland, despite trailing Cleveland in popular votes.

_________________
What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

Flood · #15 (**permalink**) 02-18-2003, 07:59 PM

My worry is that the United States are taking things to absolute extremes and somebodies' childrens' children are going to suffer from it. It IS only a matter of time before other countries can rival America, and what then? Who is going to pay for the decisions being made presently? Not Bush. It will be the country in years to come when all, or some, of the enemies the US has rise to to comparitive power. Think about it, that is a lot of countries; between war and 'peacekeeping' (which seems overly oppressive) the US will have a lot to deal with once the country is not at the top of the food chain.

I am not American, I am Canadian and do not take offense to what I said because of this. I am not racist. I try my very best to stay impartial, but I am Canadian and Canada is rarely considered in such matter. It just seems like more of a spitting contest than anything. If the military wants to assert dominance they are free to it but not at the risk of the American AND Canadian peoples. This is my opinion.

(edited by admin - please do not use or mask swear words, it is against TOS, thank you)

NYCSpeedcore · #16 (**permalink**) 02-18-2003, 08:10 PM

About a month ago I was on my way down to Maryland. This was the same day that a peace rally was being held in Washington DC. The road was packed with bus and car loads of people with peace signs in their cars. We stopped at a rest stop and a few of the people walked up to me asking me if I was on my way down there, and I replied no. I told them what I thought, it was wrong for them to go crying for peace which we cannot decide if we are going to have or not, and that they were only going to hurt the moral of our troops. I for one am very proud of those individuals who are protecting me and our countries way of life. The protesters and I got into one heated discussion which I need not repeat. My personal feeling is that it is a sad day when you cannot stick up for those who are sticking up for you, and when you so ready to wright off the lives of others only to help save your own rear by avoiding a war which can eventually save many more lives.

(edited by admin - please do not use or mask swear words, it is against TOS, thank you)
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NYCSpeedcore · #17 (**permalink**) 02-18-2003, 08:17 PM

For the record I do believe we stick our nose into to many foreign affairs, but on this matter I believe we are right. I am going to get shelled for this next comment, but I think the biggest problem we have is supporting Isrial. I have a lot of Jewish friends, they are really upset with my feelings on this one. Being a very big part in giving them their own country in the middle of Palistine has channeled a lot of hate towards us. We set ourselves up on this one, and should not have done it.
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Domingo · #18 (**permalink**) 02-18-2003, 09:06 PM

I second Naja Totally. If Britain and the US had attacked Hitler in the 1930's the World would have been spared the loss of over 10 million people. Germany signed a treaty of disarmament. After a few years they started to ignore the treaty, nobody called them and we ended up with a strong unified germany with well trained soldiers and arguably the best weapons in the world at that time. Then Hitler decided to take over the world. By the time the US got involved millions of lives had already been lost. Iraq has already signed a treaty, ingored it, and is attempting to build up their army. How far do we let him go before we decide to do something about it.

The Iraqis want to be freed. They have been defecting for years. Some of his own family members have even defected. One of his Son-in -laws went back. Sadam executed him. This is not a nice guy we are dealing with. He would be happy to see us all dead.

As for all of the people traveling to Iraq to show their support of Hussein, we used to call it treason. And we used to hang people for it.

I for one believe that the US spends way too much on foriegn issues. But this doesn;t surprise me because they spend way too much on domestic issues as well. That's why I like tax cuts, but that's a different can of worms.

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nomadbean · #19 (**permalink**) 02-18-2003, 09:48 PM

Ok, I have never considered myself Republican or Democrat, but here is my view, and from what I have been told, I am republican on this thought. Blow the everlasting crap out of the whole country, I mean one big crater squirting oil into the sky. When did we switch from Bin Laden to Sadaam? Is Bin Laden now off the hook because Sadam is acting up again? When all else fails (i.e. negotiation, peace-talks, threats), blow them up and walk away. Everyone is so afraid of what will happen if we do, but 75% of stress comes from what-ifs and maybes, so blow them up and walk away, they do not have the capabilities of striking back from where they are, so just do it or walk away. As for paying them afterwards, that is like punishing your child for something and them raising their allowance to atone for it. Get real, punishment is just that, an action to deter the event again in the future.
That is my opinion, the same people keep giving us the same problems, so just end it already. I am in full support of this war, but not a drug out spitting contest. My family and friends are over there on ships and in the middle of the desert, so I have that concern as well, but they are the ones in the right and they know if something happens to them, they are loved and admired beyond their comprehension.
My last ditch effort, hey if we bomb them into oblivion, it may improve real estate value [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]
Trina
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GldDrgn · #20 (**permalink**) 02-20-2003, 04:05 AM

British Editorial - A Must Read No matter what your views on President Bush's statement of upcoming war, this, from an English journalist, is very interesting. For those of you not familiar with the UK's Daily Mirror, this is a notoriously left-wing daily that is normally not supportive of the Colonials across the Atlantic.

Tony Parsons Daily Mirror September 11, 2002

ONE year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there, with Pol Pot's mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps. An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate. Surely there could be consensus: the victims were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil. But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seenas America's comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year. There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country - too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.

America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens of countries - were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics.

Are we so quick to betray them?

What touched the heart about those who died in the twin towers and on
the planes was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers,
somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands and wives, and children, some unborn.

And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter?

These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.

The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11.

Remember, remember. Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning theirwives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive.

Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers.

Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.

Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum.

Remember, remember - and realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the way it could have.

So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray?
Pass the Kleenex...

So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.

AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say
that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.

The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of #$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^&,"
if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of #$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^& like you wouldn't believe.

The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face
of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect
and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived. But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in theMuslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand -assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's
poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that.

Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsingskyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department.

To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange center, oh mighty one!

Remember, remember, September 11.

One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America.

No, do more than remember. Never forget.

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