Psyche versus temperment/health

Flood · #1 (**permalink**) 02-11-2003, 04:02 PM

A very good friend of mine has been keeping herps for several years and I myself have even sent some his way, but some of the things he does are not too good for the animals. Don't get me wrong, he takes excellent care of his animals but he worries more about their psyche than their physical well-being. For instance, he feeds live because that is what they eat in the wild, he doesn't understand that a mouse from africa is different than a mouse from here. He puts everything in drastically over-sized cages even though he knows that they will grow intolerant of humans. He mixes snakes in the same enclosures based on what parts of the world they are from. Aside from the above, his snakes are in incredible health(at the time being). I got some pics of a couple boas covered in bites to show, but he seems to be really stubborn.

I understand that a healthy psyche is good, but what he is doing seems kind of extreme.

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eddie · #2 (**permalink**) 02-11-2003, 04:19 PM

WoW!
I wished I lived in fantasy land.

The best I can say is to get him on here or another good forum, have him read read read everything.

And call his proc, see if they have a head puller! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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Domingo · #3 (**permalink**) 02-11-2003, 04:27 PM

It seems to me getting ripped to pieces by a rat is more damaging to a psyche than having your food handed to you. He could always jiggle the rats around, the snakes "psyche" won't know the difference. This is a common assumption; "Snakes must hunt and kill to be happy." In reality most animals (humans included) prefer being handed an easy meal.

Changing the mind of a person this arrogant can be difficult. Good luck.
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BWSmith · #4 (**permalink**) 02-11-2003, 04:35 PM

I have known a few people like that as well. But many snakes will actually eat dead prey int he wild. Ever see a cottonmouth trying to scrape a roadkill frog off the street? They also get many of the same benifits without the risk by tong feeding and giving a little tug when they strike so they constrict like normal. As far as mixing species from "the same part of the world", look at it this way. There is a lot of varience there. Afterall, Florida and Arizona are in the same country, but you would not house species from there together. Even if it is the same habitat, ranges may vary a great deal. This is aside from the obvious hardships that may be caused by not only housing multiple snakes together, but different species at that. Gotta be REAL careful when trying to do stuff like that. i mean if i had my permits and a killer huge enclosure, i would love to have Gopher Torts and Eastern Diamondbacks together. But these are species that den together int he wild. By the same token, everything changes when captivity is thrown intothe picture. Thin ice if you ask me [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]
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Flood · #5 (**permalink**) 02-11-2003, 04:45 PM

Eddie, I have suggested forums, this one in particular, to him, but he say "I could go on and post a bunch of BS so what makes you think other people don't?". This we all know is not true for the most part on this site, it is more of a friendly community than anything. Also, he keeps going back to the fact that snakes 'remember' what the wild is like, or what live food is like, etc...and he doesn't realize that snakes have little to no memory. Anyways, the main problem is that he reads old herp books and takes tham to be accurate. Books from the 'snake as a designer pet era'.

This is really hard because he absolutely loves his animals and he thinks what he does is in their best interests.
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BWSmith · #6 (**permalink**) 02-11-2003, 04:48 PM

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> Changing the mind of a person this arrogant can be difficult</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

I think arrogant might be a little strong. Seems that he is more of an idealist and is transferring human characteristics to the snakes. I think ill-informed idealist is more accurate [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Snakes are 99% instinct. They dont care what their hidebox looks like or how thier cage is arranged. Either their enclosure is set up porperly to promote a healthy snake, or it is not. Theya re not "happy" in an enclosure, but they may be stress free.
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Domingo · #7 (**permalink**) 02-11-2003, 05:04 PM

I simply meant that anyone who claims to understand the inner psyche of a snake is overestimating their psycholigical skill.

Perhaps I should have said stubborn. People like this tend to have an answer for every reason you can suggest. His mind is most likely made up until something bad happens.

I have never bought this "in the wild" argument. Nobody feeds small birds and mammals to their cats and dogs, and I highly doubt they find Gravy Train in the wild. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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LdyDrgn · #8 (**permalink**) 02-11-2003, 07:24 PM

OK... I am one of those people that believe in tending to the snakes psyche. However, I see it a LOT differently. To make a snake happy you need: Something To Climb, Places To Hide, Clean Water To Drink, Place To Soak, Proper Temps and Humidity. As far as feeding goes, snakes do not need to kill. They get no pleasure from it, it is something they have to do in order to eat. If they can get their food dead, they will. Granted there are a few that will stubbornly only take live, but it seems to me they do this because to them, THAT represents food because they know no different. With patience and persistence, that can change.

No, snakes are not happy in an enclosure, but having it set up to appeal to their instincts (hide, climb, drink, bask) I believe it makes them a lot less stressed and therefore, quite a bit less hissy/nippy. I hope I made some sort of sense here...I'm having a headache and that makes it difficult to get my point across. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_redface.gif[/img]
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Domingo · #9 (**permalink**) 02-11-2003, 10:12 PM

Makes sense to me. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] And well said, also. I believe in making my pets life pleasant also. I think that the proper enviroment is the key. They need all the comforts ldydrgn mentioned, and to be handled often. Their instincts are to breed, bask and hunt. And mine hunts thawed rats just fine. He even seems to enjoy sneaking up on them. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]

Its our job to keep them clean, fed and watered. Man if only I had it that easy. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]
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