Everything can't be ideal husbandry........

[BWSmith]

Often on this site and many others, most veteran herpers (including myself) speak about ideal husbandry. A few things that come off the top of my head:
- ALWAYS feed prekilled
- Always feed in a tote
- Keep snakes housed individually
The list goes on and on.

But I want to say that we are dealing with wild animals that did not study husbandry like we did, and it appears to me that a lot of them do not know the rules. With the hundreds of animals that have been in my care, I have seen just about everything. But i will give examples from my current personal collection.

I would like to change the wording slightly of "Always feed prekilled" to Prekilled prey is preferable. Probably 90% of snakes can be converted to prekilled prey. But what about the other 10%? In my collection rght now, I have at least 4 snakes that willonly take live prey (one Copperhead, 2 Dusky Pygmy Rattlesnakes, and 1 Black Ratsnake). So instead of saying "you are wrong to feed live", I will say try not to feed live. Try everything you can to get the animal to take prekilled. Wiggle it on hemos, split brain small prey, scent it, place at the mouth of the hide, transition from stunned to killed to F/T - whatever it takes. (I know, the hide box is not in the feeding tote, i will get to that). But there will always be some snakes that will never take prekilled or may take a significant amount of time to change it over. Let me add, DO NOT assume that your snake will not take prekilled because it has always eaten live. And give it a concerted effort to convert the snake, it is in the animals best interest. Now, back to how to feed live. Very tricky. Probably every veteran herper here has had a rodent kill a snake at some point or at least do some significant damage. This is NO JOKE!!! Live feeders are DANGEROUS. But as I said, I have 4 snakes that will only take live. So what do i do. These snakes take more time to feed than any others. (BTW, they won't even take stunned, only fully aware feeders). After placing the feeder in the cage, I wait. I have to pull up a stool and sit there with a hook and 36" hemos in hand until the meal is complete. I have to be ready at a moments notice to open the cage and intervine if anything goes wrong. This is quite an undertaking with hots! I have to make sure that the rodent does not injure the snake and i generally have to move the prey item after a strike (vens only). Once dead, I slide the prey over to a rock or other clean cage decoration to avoid it ingesting substrate. Doesn't work quite that way for constrictors. But injury to the snake and ingesting substrate are probably the top two things to watch for if you HAVE to feed live. Constrictors, I use a "Post-Kill" method. I actually kill the feeder WHILE it is in the coils. Immediately after striking and constricting, I use my hemos to wither end the feeder quickly or at least restrain the head until the snake kills it to avoid injury to the snake. These are methods that have worked for me over the years, but anytime you feed live, you are risking your snake's life for a meal. FEEDING LIVE PREY IS A LAST RESORT.

OK, what's next? ahhh, feeding totes! Works great for MOST snakes. But again, not all. Most nonvenomous species i have kept will readily eat in a tote. Most venomous will not. In fact probably only 20-25% of venomous will eat in a tote from my experience. I know that there are not too many hot keepers here, but it is a good example of how snakes don't now the rules of good husbandry. With feeding in the cage, the main concern is ingesting substrate. I will place the feeder on a paper plate inside the cage so that the snake does not eat any mulch. Sometimes this method does not work as well with constrictors, but after a while, they just crawl over and eat it.

Housing snakes individually. I try to do this whenever possible. But out of ALL my collection, probably 75% of them are paired up in cages. Problem feeders, etc get their own cage. And of course different species are never housed together. Snakes are not paired together until they are old enough to breed AND are well established with great body weight. By having them established, it reduces the stress. And Copperheads in particular i house together. They seem to LOVE it. If anyone has seen my baby Broad Band Coppers, ther are 4 babies a cage. Not uncommon to house babies together. But they are NEVER found on their own. They are either in pairs in a corner or all four in an inquisitive, tongue flicking mass. But it IS BETTER to house snakes individually and I believe that having a couple snakes per enclosure (properly sized) should primarily be left up to the more experienced keepers who can forsee some problems before they become issues. a lot can go wrong when snakes are housed together. House your snakes separately. If they are housed together, be prepared to deal with a spectrum of unpleasant suprises and dangerous situations. If you have the experience, you can pull it off, but trust me you may be "saving space" but you are trippling the work involved!

Just a little food for thought on a Monday morning. I am sure that there quite a few that will disagree with me. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

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We all have a maggot in our past that threatens to eat our future.

[Stormyva]

You're evil and should not be allowed to keep snakes!
I cant believe you would post something like that on a site that attempts to teach people how to properly care for reptiles!!!!

JUST KIDDING!!! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

You are right in saying that each individual animal may or may not have specific needs and may or may not "follow the rules" Although I do not have a collection as large as some here I have found that one of my five snakes, my ball python, has trouble "following the rules". One of the advantages of my smaller collection is that I was able to focus a lot of attention on trying to get the ball python to learn the rules to no avail. I tried everything to get the snake to eat in a separate "feeding tote" and it simply refused to eat in anything other than it's cage. The only way that it would eat is if I placed a large f/t adult mouse in the cage on a show box lid (so it would not eat substrate) turn off all the lights and leave the snake in the dark room alone for about an hour. All of the other snakes do not have the slightest problem taking food in the totes.



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"A man who carries a cat by the tail is getting experience that will always be helpful. He isn't likely to grow dim or doubtful. Chances are, he isn't likely to carry the cat that way again, either. But if he wants to, I say let him!"
Mark Twain

[JuliusSqueezer]

I won't lie and say that I have fed prekilled for all my 30+ years of keeping...but for the past 15 or so I have only fed live a very few times. I have never had to feed live more than once though to any snake during this time except for baby dumerils. The way dumerils hunt makes feeding newborn dums almost impossible to feed prekilled for at least the first 4 or 5 meals...the biggest problem with inexperienced keepers as they are too quick to give in and use the excuse that they tried and it didn't work. It will work...keep trying. Just because you gave in and fed live does not mean that it's now a lost cause. Their issue isn't so much in not eating dead prey....it is more an issue in eating at all with you around as they feel that you are going to eat them and they just wish to protect themselves and this is something that they can not do with a face full of rat. The reason some will take live and not dead when still feeling insecure is just that the movement with you not hovering over them with long scarey looking feeding tongs is just more inviting than they can stand. Figure out how to make a dead mouse move with you nowhere in site and all the problems are solved [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Once they take a meal of any kind...MOST snakes calm down and decide that things aren't as bad as they first thought and MOST will then gladly take frozen thawed ...but again...they don't all take it the same way. There are more tricks to coaxing a snake to take dead prey than there are tricks cruising the vegas strip on any given night. KEEP TRYING. and keep retrying what didn't work before. Sometimes even the first effort was the right way....but maybe the snake was startled or just wasn't hungry but liked the way it was presented and would take it that way next time. Don't bother trying to understand them...You will figure out women first LOL.
[addsig]

[telefrag]

Good points BW

One thing I would like to add to feeding in "totes" or feeding boxes.
When dealing with hots, that just adds more exposure to the animal, thus the inherent risk (although slight for experienced keepers) is increased.
I feed individual animals in cages, and the 2 pairs of snakes I have that are kept together most of the year, I take only one out to feed.

also, when dealing with wild captured, or high stress animals, removing them from the cage to feed adds another degree of "why are you doing this to me???" feelings from the snake.


[addsig]

	Venomous Reptile A term commonly used to refer to a venomous reptile. Most commonly used in reference to venomous snakes.

[BWSmith]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> I won't lie and say that I have fed prekilled for all my 30+ years of keeping </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

So Jules, you started keeping herps when you were in your early thirties? [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]

You are correct Frag. Particularly WC animals can be tricky feeders anyway. And I feed my pairs of hots in much the same way.
[addsig]

	Venomous Reptile A term commonly used to refer to a venomous reptile. Most commonly used in reference to venomous snakes.

	Wild caught wild caught

[Ed_r]

Your right Brain. Sometimes it is beneficial to house 2 snakes together. or at least till you know how to calm them down. I have a Ball Python I kept in a glass aquarium with hides and all but she would regurge her meals. I had to feed her in the cage, and when i would feed her normal sized rat prey should wouldnt touch it. She went for 3 months without eating and started to lose wieght , so I broke down and got her a live rat and she ate it instantly. then tried next week with f/t and no eat. like I said the same day after eating she would regurge the meal. She was always striking at the glass and at your hand when you would go in the cage. Finally i put in my male BP in with her after she ate, and the regurging stopped. He calmed her down enough. But she was still very high strung and stressed. I put her in a small Vision cage, and since the sides are closed she was allot calmer and kept meals down while being alone in the cage. She still wouldnt take f/t rats. After a year of starving then giving in to live. I tried a jumbo mouse. She ate it immediately f/t. She is too big to really be eating mice, but i would rather her eat 3 mice as aposed to eating live prey. I'm sure she is w/c and possibly had some issue before though i see no scars on her.
[addsig]

	Ball Python The Ball Python (Python regius), also known as the Royal Python, is a ground dwelling snake native to the savannahs and rain forests in western Africa, predominatly the countries of Ghana, Togo, and Benin.

	Frozen/Thawed A rodent or other prey item that is frozen and then thawed to be fed to a reptile or other animal.

	regurgitate Throw up. Reptiles will regurge when they feel they are in danger or if they have some sort of health issue. If your reptile has regurgitated his/her food please seek help!