questions answered....about Black Knight Mite Spray

[eddie]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>This is oh so confusing. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Hehe, go back to sleep John! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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[Ravnos]

Whether anyone likes it or not, Mr. Pound's product is the -only- one specifically labelled for use with reptiles. Thus, using any other product with reptiles is at our own risk - risk to our animals and legal risk.

Though, I do encourage anyone to go look up the Material Safety Data Sheet on permethrin. Where you will find that it is a respiratory/mucous membrane irritant. It should never be used around animals that have an already existing respiratory condition. Also, if you've ever used it, when you place the water and snake back in the enclosure the snake almost always takes immediately to the water bowl - leads me to believe it is also a skin irritant.

While I don't doubt or question its effectiveness, educate yourselves before using a product. Don't just take someone else's word for it. Especially someone trying to sell it to you. Ultimately you and you alone are responsible for your animals well-being and you can't have too much information.

Rav
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[herm]

Again, I have to ask, why are the patent numbers the same? [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]
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[BWSmith]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> Anyone can use what they want, but to say, &quot;I have used it without any problems&quot;, is far short of a clinical study </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
Keen grasp of the obvious. Nowhere does anyone claim that it is a clinical trial. it is from personal experience and expressed as such. And I would still like to know what the inert ingredients in each product is.
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[OverTech]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>Many of the replies are exactly my point. People obtain pieces of information and then make definitive statements when they are not experts in these areas. Saying that permethrin and phenothrin are &quot;basically&quot; the same chemicals is not true. They have different molecular structures, different half-lifes and depending on the isomer used and formula will certainly act differently.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Yet they are both a member of the chemical class &quot;pyrethroid&quot;. I never said they were identical, I said they are similar. For clarificaion:
a. Sawyer's and Provent-A-Mite appear to be identical (same ingredients, same patent number)
b. permethrin and phenothrin are similar chemicals of the class &quot;pyrethroid&quot;.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>Overtech states that both chemicals were used in aircraft and are now both banned. This is false. BK (Airosol Aircraft Spray) was used in occupied aircraft cabins until enough health problems were reported and per EPA PR notice 96-3 (May 14. 1996), the product was banned from use in occupied cabins. Permethrin has and continues to be widely used as an aircraft disinsection spray. It is routinely used in cargo holds and other areas to control pests. There are dozens of products currently registered for this use.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Neither can be used in the cabin with passengers or crew aboard the aircraft. Both can be used in cargo holds and such. From the same article:

&quot;Although the nerve toxin has been approved and recommended by the World Health Organisation, the E.P.A. has classified d-phenothrin and permethin as possible carcinogens and has stopped the spraying of the insecticide of U.S. airline occupied cabins. However, sprying of unoccupied cabins and cargo areas is permitted.&quot;

You can read EPA PR notice 96-3 for yourself here:
http://www.epa.gov/opppmsd1/PR_Notices/pr96-3.html

Take note that products using permethrin AND phenothrin are included in this ban from use in occupied aircraft cabins.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>To say that aerosol pesticides still use R22 &amp; 142b is also incorrect. Per 40 CFR 82-70 entitled; Nonessential Class II products and exceptions, section 82.70(a) says that the sale or distribution of any aerosol product or other pressurized dispenser containing a class II substance is prohibited. This regulation went into effect on 01-01-94. Very few exceptions were given and most of them have expired.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

BK is covered under EPA Reg Number 901-82. Expires 3/31/03. See for yourself on the Oklahoma Agriculture site: http://www.kellysolutions.com/ok/sho...t_ID=IJBAAAA01

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>In another statement it is claimed that if one chemical can cause resistance, then all chemicals can. This again shows a complete lack of understanding that all of these products use different formulas which will greatly effect the potential for creating resistance. Although in theory, the statement has validity, in the real world, one product may while others don't. It depends on the formulations and how they are being used.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

&quot;greatly effect the potential for creating resistance&quot; does not mean it won't happen over time. There is no way to test this conclusively, only time will tell.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>People focus on the generic active ingredients in a product and then feel they can state that they are the same product. First there are different isomers of a chemical that will have different properties, including toxicity. There are hundreds of products currently available that all use .5% permethrin. To say they are all the same is ludicrous.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

And still you have not addressed the part about the patent numbers.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>Anyone can use what they want, but to say, &quot;I have used it without any problems&quot;, is far short of a clinical study to make sure the product isn't causing acute or chronic problems to the animal or environment.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Please provide us with a link to the clinical studies done on PAM. I assume these were done by an outside, unbiased professional laboratory??? I would be interested in reading the toxicity reports, longterm reproductive effects, mutagenic effects, carcinogenic effects, organ toxicity, etc...

Dave

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[eddie]

This is stemming into another great discussion all around!
With lots of info, pro and con, for several products that many herpers use.

The only thing I regret is not saying Welcome aboard promist!

I'll be keeping tabs on this one throughout the day to see how it goes!
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[JuliusSqueezer]

I guess what this all comes down to is, What is the difference in a distributor and a manufacturer. Proproducts did not develop or invent proventamite. They discovered that .5% permetherin was effective in killing mites when used a certain way and they went to the manufacturer and purchased an already existing product and the rights to LABEL it for their specific use and resale. This does not mean that the ingredients are different or that they have exclusive rights to the exact ingredients. Many products have multi uses and are sold under different labels with the exact ingredients -but Labeled different and marketed for different uses. The fact that the proproducts man came here and tried to skirt the issue by comparing spraying sawyers on the animal against spraying just the cage with proventamite tells me a lot. Then the only difference he can actually prove is that the labels are different. This also tells me a lot. No two products on the market with different ingredients will share an exact pattent number. The US Patent office does not care what marketing name a product may have labeled on it....they are only concerned with the exact ingredients. Whatever chemical company is producing these products is selling them to various distributors for various uses.

When Mr Proproducts man here can show me what exactly the 99.5% of inert ingredients are in both products (sawyers and proventamite) and how they are different, then I might be convinced that there is a difference inside the can where it really matters. I can already see the difference outside the can...although there are also a couple of key identical features such as the active ingredient but more importantly the US PATENT NUMBER outside the can as well. Please explain the difference in the two products other than the labeling...which by the way makes proventamite look very cheap and looks like it was printed off a home computer. Or, just bite the bullet and sell proventamite for 4 bucks a can like Sawyer's is doing...I'm sure Sawyer's isn't paying any more than you are from the MANUFACTURER. Again...If I am holding an unlabeled can of something in each hand that have the exact same ingredients and came off the same exact production line but they have different uses and I can sell them to 2 different distributors for 2 different albiet very similar purposes ... of course they will be labeled with different names and instructions for use but that still does NOT change the fact that they are identical products.

I sold Chevys for 9 years. Very few people beleived that Chevy trucks and GMC trucks are the same exact trucks with different names. They come off the same assembly lines and are even ordered from the same order books. I ordered cars for the dealership for many years and right in the order guide are specs and order numbers like Tahoe/Jimmy so that they could send the same books to both GMC and Chevy dealers. The reason they do this is because Pontiac, Oldsmobile, and Buick dealers want to sell trucks too. We used to get trucks in all the time and have to take them right to the shop because someone at the plant put GMC hubcaps or Steeringwheels or the wrong emblems on a chevy truck. So...is one built better or in any way differently than the other? NO ...same truck different label just like Sawyers Tick spray and Proventamite Mite spray. Except, chevy and GMC trucks cost exactly the same and have the same warranty and rebates etc....despite what some salesman might tell you. I promise...they cost them exactly the same....so deal with who you wish and forget about the logo. What really matters is what is under the hood...or in this case...what is in the can.
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	Mites Mites, close relatives of fleas and ticks

[Ed_r]

I've heard comments that Bob supposedly said, is that he uses a different non aresol propellant, and this is what makes this product more herp safe than the others. Now knowing PoM has this secret propellant specially formulated for them by the chemical company on such a small scale(relatively speaking) We all should be thanksfull that they are taking the loss on this product at a mere $20. a can. Most chemical companies I would think would cost soooo much more for a special formula. Course mabe thats what the chemical company is telling Bob.
When I used to work for the Manufacturer of a Diesel engines, the expected product the manufacturer was expected to sell is the manufacturer's brand of oil. Now the big Diesel engine companies do NOT make oil, Would Never EVER be cost efficiant, So they get a company such as Valvoline to make it for them. It HAS to be the same formula that can be bought over the counter, Thats the Law. They can claim all they want its special... but its the same oil with a different label.

Now....knowing this Wouldn't you think this Chemical company is possibly blowing smoke up Bob's rear? He may believe its different, thats his perception.
I agree 100% with BWSmith in that without proff of the differences in the other ingredients i believe them to be the same.
IF THE INGREDIENTS FIT YOU MUST AQUIT! lol Sorry just sounded good.
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[RevMojo]

It's good to see a manufacturer of a product so widely used by the herp community show up to defend his product on our site. It's almost an honor...

But just like other major manufacturers/providers/etc, he only shows up to try to sell something...

Maybe I've got a misunderstanding about the word &quot;inert&quot;.....

Can you please, in simple english for those of us who were too st...for those of us who didnt pay attention it chemistry, tell us what the difference in potentially harmful ingredients is? I may not be a chemistry expert, but as a former street hustler and slight of hand artist, I know how to talk a pretty story. Gimme a deck of cards, a coin, or a bottle of shoe shine, and I can make you believe....

When proper precautions are taken, and common sense is used, one product (despite having been &quot;tested&quot; for a specific use) is somehow safer than another, despite having the same concentration of active ingredient?

Pardon me for playing stupid, but what am I missing?
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