Lampropeltis/Elaphe evolutionary bridge?

ChrisRezendes · #1 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 04:33 AM

I am of the personal opinion that Elaphe and Lampropeltis are very closely related. I believe that whenever the taxonomists FINALLY get around to revising colubridae, they should make SURE to keep Elaphe and Lampropeltis in the same family.

Take into consideration the fact that Elaphe and Lampropeltis interbreed. It is very rare for snakes of two different genera to breed. But I have seen cases successful breeding between Elaphe gutatta/Lampropeltis triangulum and Elaphe gutatta/ Lampropeltis getula. Perhaps they are so closely related (and perhaps not) that they might warrant a generic revision. I'm thinking perhaps (and perhaps not) they might belong in the same genus. Not very likely, but something to look into nonetheless.

Now, look at the Eastern Milk Snake and the Corn Snake. They are EXTREMELY similar animals. I personally believe them to be the evolutionary bridge between Elaphe and Lampropeltis. I also believe Elaphe to be the more advanced of the two. Take this into consideration. The have almost the same exact patterns. They have VERY similar behavioral patterns, both being secretive mousers (although Milks are a bit less specific in food) with mild temperaments (Milks being a little nippier). Now look at the head. They BOTH have that Y or V-shaped spearhead marking coming from the nape. Now, take this into consideration. When I showed Lori my milk snake, she asked me if I was sure that it wasn't a corn snake. Do you think she would get confused like that without a good reason? I don't. I DO think that Elaphe gutatta and Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum are very closely related. I could also go into similarities between Prarie Kingsnakes and Prarie Ratsnakes, Black Ratsnakes and Common Kingsnakes, and so on and so on. I think you've gotten my point already.

If I had the credentials, I would definitely try to do some serious work in studying the similarities and try to figure out their evolutionary relationship. Hopefully someone else will. Until then, I guess I'll just live with my little hypothesis. With any luck, this post will get some of you thinking. I'm willing to bet there are a few people here already who agree with me.

_________________
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telefrag · #2 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 05:01 AM

Well, Elaphe,and Lampropeltis both used to be Coluber at one time.
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ChrisRezendes · #3 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 05:11 AM

With the racers? What else did they have in there? I had a dream that Garter snakes were no longer Thamnophis... They had a weird name. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was something like Eutania. I'm know it was something similar to that.
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telefrag · #4 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 05:23 AM

Well, they didnt call all coluber racers,
just basically any colubrid in general, I would have to break out some of my older herp books to get some more detailed info on that.
Some taxanomists just recently started moving some of the old world coluber into other genus.
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Kohm · #5 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 05:41 AM

Elaphe alone is a huge group. Some of the Asian elaphe are very different from N. American elaphe. They should probably undergo another split soon.
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ChrisRezendes · #6 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 05:43 AM

A lot of the Asian rat snakes have already been pulled out of Elaphe, and with good reason. The only Asian rat snake that I think they should leave in Elaphe is the Mandarin Rat Snake.
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telefrag · #7 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 05:55 AM

Mandarina being the only asian elaphe?

Woah,
what about conspicullata (sp?) that is another fossorial snake that is nearly identical to mandarina in morphology.
I dont know if saying the only S.E. Asian deserving of being in Elaphe would basically dump much of Fitzinger's work on the taxa.

There is no doubt in my mind that Elaphe in general need some breakdown, and maybe even complete reassignment, but Ive kept many mandarina, and they are nothing like a typical Elaphe.

If anything, I think the Eurasian's like the persica and the situla are more deserving of a true Elaphe assignment, and perhaps breaking the N.A. Elaphe into another group, which I heard was either done, or in progress.
But I dont keep up with that stuff like I used to, so I could be totally off base.
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ChrisRezendes · #8 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 05:58 AM

You are likely to be right about that. On a slightly different topic, I'm pretty sure they took Rosina out of Elaphe and put it into Bogertophis.
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telefrag · #9 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 06:01 AM

I heard that too, about the Baja rats,
What would be interesting to me is to see what they did/going to do to Senticolis and the Bairds rat.

Do you keep any ratsnakes?
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ChrisRezendes · #10 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 06:05 AM

No. But I would jump at the chance for any European or American rats. I also have to agree with you that the Euro rats are very much Elaphe. I'm not particularly well versed on the European rat snakes, but the ones I DO have adequate knowledge of (Four-lined, Ladder Snake, and Aescupalian) are definitely Elaphe. As far as Bairds, I don't think they should take that out of Elaphe. Up until maybe ten years ago, it was actually considered a subspecies of the Common Rat as much as the Black or Everglades. I think it deserves it's own specific status, as Elaphe bairdi, but I don't think it should be taken out of Elaphe. I am very much enjoying this discussion [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]
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telefrag · #11 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 06:12 AM

Ditto,
Talking about Elaphe is always good [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

I think bairdi was given its own species status.

Not too sure.
I have kept bairdi, but its been a few years since I had any.
I really really liked them, and cant remember for the life of me why I dont have them anymore. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

I have kept several species of "Ratsnakes"
E.bimaculata
E.rufodorsata (now calling that one elaphe kinda churns my stomach, but they do look "Elaphe-ish"
E.schrenki (those are one of my favorites)
E.taeniura ssp (blue beauty- bred them twice)
E.taeniura taeniura (had a pair of albinos)
E.t.yunnanensis (still have two adult females)
E.t.ridleyi (bred them last year, hope to again this year)
E.prasina (bred once, but only one viable hatchling, trying this year again)
E.helena
E.radiata
Gonyosoma (Elaphe) oxyphala
E.mandarina
E.mollendorffi
E.obsoleta (many of the ssp)
E.bairdi
B.subocularis

Im sure if forgetting a few here and there, but you get the picture.

Have you read the Klaus Dieter Schultz book about Elaphe?

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