so I went to a herp show

telefrag · #1 (**permalink**) 07-31-2005, 10:38 PM

I went to a reptile show here in Dallas/Fort Worth on Saturday.
I havent been a frequenter of such events for a few years now, primarily because I have pretty much lost interest in the
"commercial" aspect of herping, and going to a show would almost guarantee that I would come home with one or more animals that I dont have room for.

I made some observations, that to me signal a pretty interesting future for the reptile market, possibly negative.

This wasnt a huge show by any means, but there were a few pretty well known vendors.

But what was disappointing was the over abundance of ball python and retic morphs.

I would guess that 85% of the vendors offered mostly varied ball python morphs.
Albiet very pretty and fun to see in person, the average cost per snake there was way out of the price range of just about any
average person who would attend.
There were people with bearded dragons (quite a few really) and one or two tables had leopard geckos, there were a few people that had some assorted colubrids (thank goodness), but the overall theme was "come to see what you CANT have"

If I had 30,000 and was interested in Retics or over priced ball morphs this would of been the show for me.
Unfortunately, most people these days dont have that kind of money to throw down for a snake.

So my point and question is:

What do you think this will do to the herp market over the next say.... 4 years if this continues?

what does a 10 year old kid who wants a snake think when most of the animal at a show are WAYY out of his price range?

maybe im just bitter that I cant afford them, but I have noticed some disturbing trends in the direction herpetoculture is going.

Rex322 · #2 (**permalink**) 07-31-2005, 10:49 PM

no its not just you. alot of morphs are over priced. what do i think is gonna happen? i think that the breeders are just gonna have to sell them for a lower price. cause who around here has the money to throw at a $30,000 snake? i can see up to $1000, but past that is rediculous. the show i went to in michigan a few weeks back had no ball morphs or boa morph, just hets. the only morphs there were a few colubrids and granite burms.

blkcrochunter · #3 (**permalink**) 07-31-2005, 10:58 PM

Eventually they will have to come down on prices, alot of people cant afford some of these morphs. The guy who owns the local pet shop I frequent, has a bp on KS right now going for 25k. It is a fire ball python, when he sells it he will let me know. Just like everyone is breeding to get albinos, soon they will be $500.00 or less. Like Clay's site everyone there are morph fanatics, and drop loads of money for these snakes. By the time they are breeding age and do breed, prices on morphs will go down alot.

telefrag · #4 (**permalink**) 07-31-2005, 11:27 PM

The other problem that is more troubling to me is that many breeders who have in the past had diverse collections and bred many taxa are getting out of the varied snake business and focusing their efforts on high dollar snakes, what I feel that will ultimately do is discourage many people from breeding just the basic colubrids and boas.

when most of the professional breeders start focusing on one or two species, that will eventually leave a gap between the availability of captive bred snakes such as bulls,pines,kings,milks,misc ratsnakes,watersnakes, and stuff like that.

granted, I know that there will always be someone breeding those snakes, but availability and potentially prices may be affected in the future.

But for what its worth, the only people I saw leaving with animals , were leaving with kings, bulls, corns, beardies, etc.

people are going to go to herp shows to find good prices (compared to pet stores) on corns, kings, milks, or hopefully to find a nice oddball colubrid only to find a show full of boa,retic,ball,burm morphs.

the choices will be fewer and that may affect peoples interest in the hobby at some point, (disclaimer** this is just hypothetical situation)

TheOtherAndy · #5 (**permalink**) 08-01-2005, 01:13 AM

Well, you have two tiers in the herp market. Producers and consumers. For all intents and purposes, any animal that sells for over $300 is mostly going to be sold to other people wanting to breed them (in most cases, thinking they can sell them for the same price...which is especially blockheaded when it comes to snakes

). What a lot of people do is try to make their money on profit margin rather than volume. Which is fine, but there are limits on how many of those people the market can support, as well as the species involved. Once somebody produces a new morph, or offers something rare cb, the clock starts ticking price wise. I think what you're seeing means its a good time to wait before buying ball and retic morphs, but not necessarily a bad omen for the herp market in general. Definitely some funny economics in this racket though.

Dbutton · #6 (**permalink**) 09-09-2005, 01:13 AM

I don't care how pretty those ball python morphs are, they still aren't worth 15-30,000 dollars for a little 10inch snake! I give the ball python market 3 more years and they are going to hit the wall and all these guys that have 50-200 breeder morphs are going to be trying to give them away just to save on their feeding bill. Once enough people get ahold of the axantics, spiders, bumblebee's etc. and breed the morph male to their 80 normal females and get 150 morph babies out of them the market will be flooded and nobody will be paying the thousands and thousands that they are now for them.
Boas are the same way and the albino's, as was said above, will be droping in price like a rock in another season. Just a simple lesson in supply and demand. The only steady place in boa breeding right now is in locality specific BCC's. And I think that market will stay pretty steady for quite some time to come.

David

Ghroller · #7 (**permalink**) 09-09-2005, 01:28 AM

Sounds a lot like the one in Missisauga Ont. Happens a few times a year. Mostly over prices Het for Albino Balls and $350.00 High yellow Leopard Geckos. Only 2-3 tables had some other things Like Colubrids, few bloods and Brb. Going to check it out again this Sunday. Hoping to bring something home...

wreckwriter · #8 (**permalink**) 09-09-2005, 02:04 PM

I saw the same at Daytona, huge prices, but the thing that really got me was that virtually onbody was set up to take credit cards. "Cash only" seems kinda stupid when you're asking multi-thousands for your items.

Ghroller · #9 (**permalink**) 09-09-2005, 02:07 PM

Cash only is just stupid period in my opinion. It's not hard to bring a card swipe machine with you:\ Especially since now adays you don't have to call the credit card company to process it just manually run it through your debit machine. I couldn't live without my debit machine

Dbutton · #10 (**permalink**) 09-09-2005, 02:14 PM

Well first off, they also take checks and will call it in to the bank on their cell phone to make sure it is good. So that is usually how the high dollar tranactions take place. Cash is good too though.
One thing you have to remember is who we are talking about. These are all reptile breeders and most aren't very computer savvy. I know a few who would be quite humorous trying to run a laptop with a card swiper on a cellular connection. One thing would go wrong and the whole setup would get dumped in the trunk till the end of the show. Maybe technology will catch up soon and give up portable all in one register systems.

David

TekWarren · #11 (**permalink**) 09-09-2005, 02:59 PM

As far as technology goes I think its the people who are needing to catch up...not the technology itself. I see credit card readers at the few shows I get to, its just a matter of effort on the merchants part.

I also agree alot the shows are more than a little intimidating. I remember when I first started considering het animals I was asking a breeder the price on one. I literally laughed in his face thinking he was joking while he stared at me sternly. It was an eye opener. Even to this day...this week actually I purchased my first FEMALE het albino ball python, every time I stop and think about that $500 I dropped on this hatchling I can't help but feel a bit irrisponsible...that $500 is well over a car payment...its nearly a house payment! I think some of what is happening at these shows is that the people/breeders who do have the money are somewhat showing off for each other and doing business with each other as was said little Johny isn't going to walk to in and buy an albino ball...no way. Sure they have some normal animals that are sold cheaply and not to get off topic I think this is where importing comes in to play. Established breeders are so into the higher quality animals and have made them out to be so valuable that no average hobbyest can buy them...yet the breeder still needs to make a buck so they go and import....yes i realize this is stereotypical and I'm not saying they all do it but it could very well be a driving factor. With the new morphs being produced and based off other morphs this could keep prices high but then again I think there will come a point where hopefully the driving force will realise that they are not going anywhere but in a circle with these outrageus prices.

It would be nice to hear from such individuals and actually learn who or what kind of people they are actually marketing to, obviously they are making it as many of the big names make a living off their (once loved/still loved?) hobby.

wreckwriter · #12 (**permalink**) 09-09-2005, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dbutton

Well first off, they also take checks and will call it in to the bank on their cell phone to make sure it is good. So that is usually how the high dollar tranactions take place. Cash is good too though.
One thing you have to remember is who we are talking about. These are all reptile breeders and most aren't very computer savvy. I know a few who would be quite humorous trying to run a laptop with a card swiper on a cellular connection. One thing would go wrong and the whole setup would get dumped in the trunk till the end of the show. Maybe technology will catch up soon and give up portable all in one register systems.

David

More than a few at Daytona had "no checks" signs prominently displayed. I didn't ask anyone if there were options other than cash because I wasn't in a position to spend large quantities in any form.

I would think and hope that there would something available as I can't see it being a good idea to carry 10k in one's pocket in downtown Daytona...

jtrott · #13 (**permalink**) 09-09-2005, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dbutton

I don't care how pretty those ball python morphs are, they still aren't worth 15-30,000 dollars for a little 10inch snake! I give the ball python market 3 more years and they are going to hit the wall and all these guys that have 50-200 breeder morphs are going to be trying to give them away just to save on their feeding bill. Once enough people get ahold of the axantics, spiders, bumblebee's etc. and breed the morph male to their 80 normal females and get 150 morph babies out of them the market will be flooded and nobody will be paying the thousands and thousands that they are now for them.
Boas are the same way and the albino's, as was said above, will be droping in price like a rock in another season. Just a simple lesson in supply and demand. The only steady place in boa breeding right now is in locality specific BCC's. And I think that market will stay pretty steady for quite some time to come.

David

Sorry, I just saw this and had to post. David, I think you are half right. One morph that you mentioned will drop in price, and that is the spider. There are just too many people that have them for the price not to drop. The good thing about ball pythons is that there are always combos that can be made. You said the bumblebee. That is a combo of the spider and pastel. You can buy a bumblebee for $15,000 or so, or just produce your own for less than $4,000. Granted you are 2-3 years off from other breeders, but that is the way it goes.

The ball python market is at its strongest now, with new morphs being produced everyday, and new people getting into the "craze" everyday. The ball python market is strong for years and years to come, and here is why. There are probably 100 morphs of ball pythons. When the market gets saturated with spiders, or pastels, or mojaves...etc, the combos will be "affordable". The ball market is no where near as saturated as other markets, and is probably one of the more stable markets as of now, unlike the burm or boa market. I have not seen a new boa morph in years. A new ball morph, or 20 are produced every season. As long as there are new morphs, there will also be buyers, and that is what keeps a market strong.

Jason

telefrag · #14 (**permalink**) 09-09-2005, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtrott

Sorry, I just saw this and had to post. David, I think you are half right. One morph that you mentioned will drop in price, and that is the spider. There are just too many people that have them for the price not to drop. The good thing about ball pythons is that there are always combos that can be made. You said the bumblebee. That is a combo of the spider and pastel. You can buy a bumblebee for $15,000 or so, or just produce your own for less than $4,000. Granted you are 2-3 years off from other breeders, but that is the way it goes.

The ball python market is at its strongest now, with new morphs being produced everyday, and new people getting into the "craze" everyday. The ball python market is strong for years and years to come, and here is why. There are probably 100 morphs of ball pythons. When the market gets saturated with spiders, or pastels, or mojaves...etc, the combos will be "affordable". The ball market is no where near as saturated as other markets, and is probably one of the more stable markets as of now, unlike the burm or boa market. I have not seen a new boa morph in years. A new ball morph, or 20 are produced every season. As long as there are new morphs, there will also be buyers, and that is what keeps a market strong.

Jason

Im going to agree that the ball market is at its strongest now, but what happens when the people that can afford them have already spent the money on them?
As with anything else in this world, what goes up must come down.

I just cant see the ball market maintaining the momentum it currently has.

Same with retics, they are not a snake everybody can have due to size constraints. How many people are going to be able to house the average size/locale retic?
We will have a situation very similar to what happened to burms after the dust settled from the initial morph "craze" with those.
Now you cant hardly give them away.

But fortunately, that will never be a problem for ball pythons.

TekWarren · #15 (**permalink**) 09-09-2005, 06:36 PM

I think of it like this: once the present morphs become more "affordable" sure the price may come down and more people will have them...BUT like jtrott said new genetic patterns are being exploited every year. Not only that and also stated by jtrott, new morphs are being "created" by combining genetic base morphs. The thing to wonder is if these "base morphs" are the tip of the scale or the base. In other words will morph and morph combiniations grow outwardly creating new morph crosses or will it slim down to the point where are no new combinations to exploit? I think it hard to fathom that there will come a point where new combinations couldn't be made. So in theory morphs may not keep their current prices but will still hold value as these are the building blocks for what is coming. Unless on some strange note all interst is lost but that is not likely. Another point if we're talking about specifics, the number of offspring produced (was also mentioned before this I think) greatly affects prices and the speed at which the market becomes "saturated".

TekWarren · #16 (**permalink**) 09-09-2005, 06:43 PM

after re-reading the post above my last another comment. SIZE does matter, I think the average joe's out there are more apt to bring home a ball python or colubrid rather than a retic or burm. Look at how many different morph's there are for corn snakes...they are small and fairly easy to care for and you can create morphs practially without even trying. With Balls they are smaller also and have small clutches so that greatly affects any "saturation" that may occur by drastically slowing it down. That alone keeps prices on new morphs way above our heads.

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