Chalk another one up for the good guys (off-topic)

najaboy · #1 (**permalink**) 03-23-2002, 07:18 AM

I've been sitting on this story for a couple of days since it has nothing to do with reptiles, but decided to post it anyways. For those who don't know, I am a reserve police officer in a suburban Detroit community (in additon to my Air Force commitment), and a strong proponent of the right of law-abiding citizens to self-defense.

Sadly, people such as Sarah Brady & the below-mentioned Arthur Hayhoe, do not feel the same. In the article, Hayhoe claims that it was a shooting of an "unarmed man" (the second dirtbag, who was reaching for the weapon).

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> Dad slays gunman inside son's store
By Rich McKay
Sentinel Staff Writer

March 20, 2002

ORANGE CITY -- This article misspelled the name of Volusia County Sheriff's Sgt. Bob Kelley.

A father came to his son's rescue during an armed robbery attempt at a Blockbuster Video store Monday night -- slaying the gunman and wounding an accused accomplice with a .45-caliber pistol he kept under his shirt, detectives said.

It was no coincidence that Robert P. Shockey was at the store. Every night that his 20-year-old son, Gabe, closes up, Robert Shockey waited and watched. And he has been armed with his semi-automatic.

The reason is another robbery at the Blockbuster in January. During that crime, one of Gabe Shockey's co-workers was attacked and dragged around by his hair.

Shockey's son refused to quit his job, so the father did the only thing he could think of to protect his son -- watch.

"A lot of nights it'd be just him, and it's so dark there," Shockey said. "I'd go down, 10:30, 11 and sit in my car in the parking lot. I figured if there were cars there, it would help. If my son wasn't busy, I'd go in and talk to him.

"I don't consider myself a hero," he said. "I love my family."

Detectives say it was lucky he was there Monday.

Robert Shockey, a 50-year-old carpenter, was inside the Enterprise Road store about 11:45 p.m., 15 minutes before closing. There were no customers as Gabe Shockey went to the back office to tally up the day's receipts. Robert Shockey stood inside near the front counter talking to a young man on his first day of work.

From his DeLand home Tuesday, Shockey recalled the events. The door burst open and two men rushed in. Ski masks covered their faces. One brandished a rifle and both were shouting violent, obscenity-laced threats."They made it clear that they would kill us," Shockey said.

His son saw it on the monitors in the office and called 911. But the shooting happened just heartbeats later.

"It was fast -- an adrenaline moment," Shockey said. "I had no time to think, just react."

The gunman first pointed the rifle at Robert Shockey and then at an employee, identified only as Brian. While the rifle was pointed at the young employee, Shockey reached for the pistol tucked in his belt against the small of his back. He drew the weapon.

"I shouted, "Freeze!" he said. The man with the rifle -- standing only about 6 feet away -- turned and pointed it at Shockey.

Shockey fell silent for a moment when asked about what happened next. "It's got him shaken up," said his wife, Gloria.

Detectives say Shockey fired at least two shots, hitting the gunman once in the throat and once in the chest. The man detectives say was an accomplice then reached for the rifle, so Shockey fired again, hitting him in the chest. He fired a fourth shot that missed.

The man who died, 19-year-old James Franklin Wince of Deltona, was an off-duty employee of the store he was trying to rob, said detectives, who think Wince was involved in the January robbery.

The survivor, Darius Bennett, 18, is charged with murder in his partner's death under a law that allows someone involved in a felony to be charged with murder even if that person didn't do the killing. Felony murder is a second-degree murder, sheriff's spokesman Gary Davidson said.

Bennett was charged at his hospital bed in the intensive care unit at Halifax Medical Center in Daytona Beach, where he was listed in stable condition Tuesday afternoon. Bennett, who also has several felony convictions, is expected to recover.

Shockey, who has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, received praise from sheriff's officials for his actions, and got a call from Sheriff Ben Johnson, who offered his support.

"He [Shockey] is going to get the good-citizenship award," Davidson said.

Detectives will forward their information to the State's Attorney's Office for a final decision.

Investigator Sgt. Bob Kelly said: "It appears to be a self-defense case."

Though only 19, Wince has a record of a half dozen arrests and several convictions on charges ranging from burglary to vehicle theft. A Blockbuster spokesman in Dallas, Randy Hargrove, said the company does not do criminal background checks at its Florida stores. He could not explain the reason for that policy.

Arthur Hayhoe, the executive director of the Florida Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, said this case is "a tough call" for a group that favors strict gun laws.

He said he won't "second-guess" a parent defending his son, but Hayhoe is troubled with the second shooting.

"It's still a shooting of an unarmed person, and that's always troubling," he said.And he predicted the story will wind up in the National Rifle Association's publication, The American Rifleman, and its column, Armed Citizen, which recounts the stories of people who use guns to defend themselves.

The NRA declined to comment on the incident. But another group, the Gun Owners of America, based in Springfield, Va., applauded.

"It's a classic case of self-defense, and one less menace to society," said the group's executive director, Larry Pratt. "Good for him."

Robert Shockey doesn't want praise, saying, "I was just doing what I had to do."

Alicia C. Caldwell of the Sentinel staff contributed to this report.

Rich McKay can be reached at rmckay@orlandosentinel.com or 386-253-2316.

Copyright © 2002, Orlando Sentinel
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

_________________
Blaming guns for violence is like blaming spoons for Rosie O'Donnel being fat.

Reticu-Lady · #2 (**permalink**) 03-23-2002, 07:55 AM

Way to go! He was protecting his family. Any real parent would protect his child anyway necessary. I think he deserves a huge pat on the back. (and maybe some free therapy, I am sure he feels badly even if he ridded the world of one dirtbag) I appreciate his quick thinking, he saved his son's life. More power to him!
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Countryboy · #3 (**permalink**) 03-23-2002, 08:17 AM

This is a good example of gun control. Hitting what you aim at. If we had stricter gun laws then the father would not be aloud to own a gun because he is a lawabiding citizen and the criminals would have probably shot him and got away with it. If more people were like him there would be a lot less criminals.
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cb76 · #4 (**permalink**) 03-23-2002, 08:23 AM

god bless him for doing that.
seriously! i am soooo glad that he was shown for the hero he is. dirtbags like that gotta go.
there are too many god #$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^& right protecting criminals nowadays. if that were in NY i think he would've went to jail.

i feel sorry that he has to go through the rough feeling of "takin' out the trash", and hope he makes it through okay. he did what i think we all would do! i would do anything for the good of mankind. not just my family n snakes, but for all too......

scum like that have to go.....
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Rolento · #5 (**permalink**) 03-23-2002, 09:30 PM

Ok, so a guy who was just trying to rob a store gets killed and this is a good thing? Isn't that a bit harsh? A guy who worked at the Blockbuster in question is probably no 'real' killer and was just all talk.. but now is dead.

Yeah, great. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
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Bry · #6 (**permalink**) 03-23-2002, 09:54 PM

>>Ok, so a guy who was just trying to rob a store gets killed and this is a good thing? Isn't that a bit harsh? A guy who worked at the Blockbuster in question is probably no 'real' killer and was just all talk.. but now is dead.
>>
>>Yeah, great. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

I hear ya, man...

Bry

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Reticu-Lady · #7 (**permalink**) 03-23-2002, 10:17 PM

Yes, it's a bit harsh, but it would have be hersher if an innocent young man (the son) was killed for nothing more than a couple bucks, which seemd to be the norm nowadays. Unfortunatly, it is rather harsh but maybe if that happened a bit more often, the crime rate might go down. Criminals may start to learn that crime doesn't pay anymore, because unfortunatly crime does pay now. Harsh times call for harsh actions. It's a shame, but it may be what's needed right now to get the balance back the way it should be.
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najaboy · #8 (**permalink**) 03-24-2002, 12:30 AM

This was not a simple property crime. IMO, the father actually showed great restraint by verballychallenging the perps before dropping them.

To begin with, there was justifcation to believe that greivous bodily harm would be done to employees, based on the actions during previous robberies. Couple this with the fact that the perp was taking aim at people, and screaming that he will shoot them. This alone is reasonable justification for the shooting.

After being challenged, the now-deceaseed dirtbag turned and took aim at the father. I'm sorry, but if someone takes aim at me with a shotgun, they're winding up with at least two new holes in their body.

Yes, a man is dead, but better him than someone else. He first made the concientious decision to commit armed robbery. He then made the decision to threaten the lives of innocents. Finally, he made the decision to turn his weapon on someone who was capable of defending himself.

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#9 (**permalink**) 03-24-2002, 01:52 AM

I'm on the "good thing" team. Crime is approached far too casually these days.

Break the law, risk the consequences. Too bad he didn't finish of the other piece of poopy...
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cb76 · #10 (**permalink**) 03-24-2002, 05:32 AM

wow!
i cant even believe you would think that, but thats your opinion.
the perp used a deadly weapon! a deadly weapon is any instrument, including motor vehicle, in the manner of wich it is used that is readily capable of causing serious physical injury and/ or death.

it could of been a pen- i would have done the same thing!!!

strait up- that person chose to do what he wanted to do, the other who was helping chose to participate- they totally knew what they wanted and the reprocussions.

dont ever take the side of a bad person here and say the person who defending his own son was wrong- screw that! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_mad.gif[/img] its people who make comments like that that keep giving the criminals their rights and putting them back on the streets- to keep commiting crimes and murder.

yes- he totally got what he deserves- so did the other one.
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Rolento · #11 (**permalink**) 03-27-2002, 12:10 AM

The store has insurance... Give the person the money, and hope the security cameras do their job. The death penalty shouldn't even exist at all, let alone be carried out by the judgement of a single person. It's typical US mentality to think that killing people for stepping on your toes is a good thing. No other 'civilized' country would do that. Do they need to kill people in England to keep the crime down like you're suggesting here? No, they don't.
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Rolento · #12 (**permalink**) 03-27-2002, 12:12 AM

...Oh, and cb76:

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> strait up- that person chose to do what he wanted to do, the other who was helping chose to participate- they totally knew what they wanted and the reprocussions. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Do you actually think they thought that they would DIE, or go to jail, huh? Most people go to jail for robbing a store.
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karibou · #13 (**permalink**) 03-27-2002, 01:16 AM

You know what, My boyfriend, his 10 year old son and I were recently victims in an armed robbery.. the b@stards pushed his son in the back with a 9mm.. the other one was pointing a machine gun at people.. and you know what, the fact that that @ss even had the nerve to touch a 10 year old kid wiht his gun made me so angry that had i had a gun i would have shot him without even thinking first. would i regret it? no because i was protecting a loved one from harm and for that there is no regrets. I think the father was in the right in this one. I can also guarantee that before this year is over i will have a concealed weapon's permit, "civilized" or not, there are times now days where that is your only means of protection.
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najaboy · #14 (**permalink**) 03-27-2002, 01:23 AM

Rolento, had this been simply a property crime, I would agree with you that the perp should not have been shot. However, he chose to make it clear, by his words and actions, that he had the intent to shoot. At that point in time, he bacame a credible threat to the innocents in the store. The BG didn't say,"Do what I tell you, and no one gets hurt". Rather, he said something to the effect of, "I'm gonna f@#$%^& kill you all."

I don't care whether I am on duty, or off, if someone assaults me with a weapon, I treat them accordingly (ie, neutralize the threat). There is no "just kidding" clause to threats with a deadly weapon- they are all taken seriously. As such, my desire to go home at night takes precendence over the BG's.

It's not a matter of killing someone for "stepping on your toes"; it is a matter of the law-abiding ciitizen's right to defend his or her own life, or that of others when a credible threat exists.

As for the death penalty, I'll merely go on record saying that I suppport its use. However, since this is a rahther controversial subjecct that could be debated forever, I'll just leave it at that. Interstingly enough though, England's crime rate actually rose just after the death penalty was abolished. However, this is attributable to their strict gun control, and not to captial punishment.

Finally, as to whether or not the BG's thought that their demise was a possibility of their actions, I'm sure that they didn't. Nearly everyone who commits a crime thinks that they will get away with it. Those who use a firearm in the commission of their crime, generally only thinkof one thing- getting away with it at any cost, even if that cost is an innocent life.

Karibou, getting a CCW in MI is a good choice to make. Now that we have joined the ranks of the "shall issue" states, county gun boards have to have a valid reason to deny a license. There are just a few changes that I would like to see made to the current law...1) abolishment of the ban on carrying into any establishment licensed to serve alcohol on premises. What I would instead like to see is a ban on carrying into establishments that derive at least 51% of their revenue from the ssale of alcohol. and 2) removing multiplex theatres from the list of restricted places, while clarifying what constitutes an "entertainment venue".

Just keep in mind that carrying is a tremendous responsibility. Find the gun that is right for you, and practice until you are proficient with it, and then practice some more. A very good resource for anyone here in MI is the Michigan Coalition of Responsible Gun Owners. Even if you have just a passing interest in applying for a ccw, they're worth a look, especially the forums.

_________________
Blaming guns for violence is like blaming spoons for Rosie O'Donnel being fat

trinitywolf · #15 (**permalink**) 03-27-2002, 01:25 AM

This arguement hits a little close to home for me. I worked as the Store mgr. at a Blockbuster for several years. Right before I left we were robbed twice! This was in a small town, not a big city mind you.
Rolento, you are welcome to you opinion, but I don't agree. This animal (yes I use the word freely here) jumped two people coming out of the store after close. Both were college students. A male and a female. First he smacked the guy around with the gun, and then instructed him, battered and bleeding, to get back into the store and turn off the alarm. He drags the girl in behind him at gun point. She is so scared that she actually wet her pants my friend. He takes them back to the safe and tells them both if they make a sound he'll kill them. He has already showed his propensity for violence. Both employees believed him. After he gets the money, he ties the young man up, takes the girl into the store and sexually assults her with the weapon. This all goes on for about 30 minutes. When he is done struggling with her he gets up, smacks her around, and leaves.
Both of these peoples lives were changed drasticlly when this happened. The man had to listen, tied up and helpless to the scenario in the store. She screamed the entire time. These are people that work there together. Friends with any of your co-workers? Think about that! Believe me; he still has nightmares about this. So does she.
Wanna guess how many times this guy did this before he was caught? He robbed 12 different Blockbusters and sexually assulted at least 7 different girls. I wish that I had been present with a weapon. Do you think that any of these people asked to be assulted or raped? I don't. All they wanted to do was to make a little beer money for the weekennds, so they could go out with their friends. That is leagel!

On the insurance note....we all pay for the premiums that businesses pay for their insurance. Those cost are passed on to the consumer. When a business is robbed it's premiums go up. SO DO OUR COST!!! Who do you think pays for that robbery? To put that free money in that pocket?! You and I do.
My advice is this: IF YOU DON"T WANT TO GET SHOT....GET A JOB!!! AND QUIT ROBBING PEOPLE!!! He "just' wanted to rob the store? What if he "just" wanted to rape your girlfriend, or he "just" wanted to take your money? Think about that long and hard. I hope you never find out. I wish that no one ever had to find out.
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#16 (**permalink**) 03-27-2002, 07:03 PM

What is a civilized country? In some arab countries, they cut off your #$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^& hand for shoplifting.

I just cannot grasp your reasoning Rolento, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I think removing the scum layer off the top of the gene pool is perfectly acceptable. If there were stiffer penalties, I think there'd be less crime. If 50% of attempted armed robberies ended with the perps being killed, sooner or later I think the criminals will clue in and say "Hey, if I rob this place, there's a decent chance I'm gonna get popped"

people like the one Trinitywolf mentioned serve no useful purpose to the general population. Why have them around to burden the rest of us?
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amErika · #17 (**permalink**) 03-28-2002, 07:29 AM

My two cents....

First of all I hope those people who view the perps as "scum" or "dirt bags" or "trash" realize that they are in no position to judge or label anyone but themselves. On my fifteenth birthday I was arrested for commercial burgulary. I was caught, with three other people, by sheriffs at gun point. I was a confused kid who happened to find comfort in the wrong group of friends. I was arrested a number of times. One time the sheriff told my mom that he almost shot me. I am twenty-three years old now. I have an AA degree, a BA degree, I have succeded at every job I have had, I have a beautiful daughter, a nice car, a nice home. I am a refuge for many of my freinds and family, I have been blessed with an amazing boyfriend. I am pursuing my second BA and planning on so much more. So what do I have to say to those of you who feel it was right to take the life of a young, probably lost boy because he made a wrong choice. How dare you. How dare you feel just in saying that he deserved what he got, that he knew the possibility of dying and did it anyway. I could have been killed at age sixteen and robbed of my life. I could have lost the chance to graduate, to love Rolento, to learn that I am becoming a better person everday. I could have had the birth of my daughter stolen from me. This boy is the one who was robbed. He is the one who had his life stolen from him. He will never know if he had a chance to become something better. How dare you who pulled that trigger and how dare you who judge that boy, you robbed him of the opportunity to find a better life.

Second of all, I have a daughter and I would go to all lengths to protect her. However, I would never put her in a position that exposes her to a death caused by my own hands. Personally, I feel that if it was considered a life or death situation for my daughter after the first robbery, then she would not have a choice of continuing employment at that store.

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<b>"You are only young once, but you can be immature forever." -- Barbara Murphy

najaboy · #18 (**permalink**) 03-28-2002, 08:23 AM

I said it before, and I'll say it again... the dirtbag got what he deserved. I, along with everyone on this site am in a position to judge/label the perp- simply for the fact that going around shoving shotguns in people's faces and threatening to kill them is generally considered to be a bad thing. It comes down to a value judgement....who's life matters more- the guy with the shotgun who is threatening to kill people, or the lives of those who he is threatening. Personally, I'd go with the people who are being threatened.

As I said before, I don't care if I'm on duty or off... if someone poses an immediate risk to my life, or that of anyone else, they have one of two options...1) they can de-escalate the situation themselves, or 2) I can de-escalate it for them. Naturally, the first option should be the more appealing of the two, as the worst that will happen is they go to jail. All bets are off if they opt for number 2.

Amerika, you are comparing apples & oranges. This was not an act of youthful indiscretion. This was an adult, commiting assault with a deadly weapon. He was robbed of nothing- he threw his own life away. I have no pity for those who waste their own lives in such a manner. Were it a simple act of robbery, then I'd say the shooting was not justified. However, he decided to give people a resonable belief that he was going to kill them.
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amErika · #19 (**permalink**) 03-28-2002, 11:48 PM

I would love for anyone to tell me that at age nineteen they considered themselves complete adults with full awarness of the world and without youthful ignorant mistake. I am twenty-three and I am sometimes more lost now than I was at nineteen. Had that "dirt bag" been your son who was making immoral decisions that resulted in his death you would be preaching to a different tune today. I am in know way condoning or approving of what they did, they deserved to get caught and go to jail. I would just like to bring to light the fact that these were human beings with families and loved ones. That these were YOUNG criminals with the possibility of becoming more than just crooks. However one will never know.

NinjaBOY: Funny how you can refer to yourselve as a boy when you are older that these, Yet when I refer to these kids as boys you protest that they are adults. Anyway I take what you say to mean that at that moment when the sheriff almost pulled the trigger on me, that I would have deserved it because I knew what I was doing and the consequences. Well, I assure you that I was more scared of doing the crime than of the gun at my temple once caught. As an officer I will assume that from your past experiences you will never know what it is like to be in the shoes of a YOUNG criminal, so stop assuming personal feelings and knowlengde of something you know nothing about. It is one thing to be the officer with the gun and another to be the confused kid with it at your temple. It is one thing to believe in self defense and gun rights and another to be shot or killed because of a crime that should have never resulted in death.
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najaboy · #20 (**permalink**) 03-29-2002, 06:24 AM

Amerika, I can understand where you're coming from, and see the point that you are trying to make. Let me try to clarify mine, without using any euphemisms for the man that died.

Certainly the BG in this situation did deserve to go to jail. Had he chosen a different couurse of action, he could have also gotten away scott free, but his actions with the rifle and verbal threats changed this from a simple burglary into assault with a deadly weapon. By changing the dynamics of the situation, he also influenced the outcome.

There's three factors to consider in a defensive shooting situation... Ability, Opportunity, and Intent. The BG in this incident evidenced all three. He had the ability (rifle), the opportunity (close proximity to his victims), and he manifested the intent (by his words and his final action). Only when all three of these factors come into play, is taking a life justified.

It was a series of bad decisions that led to the robber's death. The first was to be a career criminal. By all rights, James Franklin Wince should have still been behind bars at the time for the multiple felonies that he had already been convicted of.

His second mistake was to manifest the intent to kill his victims. He made it quite clear to them that he had no qualms about killing them, both through his words and actions. He gave everyone in that store a reasonable belief that their deaths were imminent. Waiting to act until after someone gets killed was not a viable option.

We're all prone to errors in judgement, even as adults. However, assault with a deadly weapon constitutes a bit more than a simple error in judgement. Also, as adults, we are held culpable for our actions, and expected to face the consequences that come from them.

Moving on to your situation, I don't feel in the least that the deputy would have been justified in shooting, from what you have told me. Your situation, from what you've posted, doesn't fit the criteria to justify such an action (ability, opportunity, intent). On the other hand, if you were pointing a rifle at him, screaming that you were going to kill him...

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