religion/snakes/general public

[all2e_z]

Greetings. As far as registration is concerned - I'm very much new here. However, I've been reading articles, viewing pictures and devouring the information given here on www.redtailboa.net for quite some time now. So I do not consider myself a newbie in any fashion.

I work for a major gas/electric company here in Houston, TX (centerpoint energy).

Everyone I work around @ work knows I own a few snakes.

1 female ball python
1 male columbian red tail boa (constrictor)
1 sex unknown anerythristric boa (constrictor)

Eventually I'd love to own @ least *1* of every kind of common exotic pet store snake there is to own. But I believe my hands are PLENTY full with what I'm doing now. I do NOT breed my animals. Nor do I EVER intend to do such a thing. There are FAR to many breeders out there who KNOW what they are doing.

Ok, now you've got my little background.

My question lies within the following:

A lot of my co-workers have this itch of suspicion<sp?> that because snakes were cursed in the bible to "forever" slither upon their bellies - that they are creatures that ought to be left in the wild. Other's among them take the good old saying "play with snakes long enough... your bound to be bitten".

Now while I certainly DO beleive in God and that the bible has nothing but truth within it's pages; I do NOT believe that because they were cursed creatures that we are not to learn form them just as we have everything else in our world. Those who choose to keep them as pets - I see this as appreciating another form of God's art.

I suppose I should get to my ultimate question.

How can i educate my co-worker (without insulting them) on the art that is a snake and help them learn to appreciate that these are not creatures that are to be shunned away as if it were a cockroach of some sort?

With all this said - I bid everyone on redtailboa.net a grand merry christmas and a HAPPY new year.

The view expressed ABOVE are purely my OWN and do NOT represent the views of others here @ redtailboa.net OR it's members. Everything I typed above was solely for the purpose of education and research and further opinions. *I do NOT wish to dive into a HUGE debate over religion, snakes within it or any other aspect of that subject.*

And I'd also like to thank folks such as "JuliusSqueezer", "Bry" *and SO many others of whom I can't spend all day typing out* who contribute GREATLY to this site and use proper grammar when possible.

[CARLiTO_]

There are alot of metaphors in the bible, I don't think it's meant to be taken literally.

Didn't snakes evolve from Lizards?

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[Karnis]

Snakes evolveing from Lizards is thrown in there but there is no scientific proof to say it, there is a missing link in there somewhere and untill that proof can be found It is a bit of a Mystery.

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[haroldo359]

you aren't gonna change some peoples' minds. just isn't gonna happen. you can continue to try, though.

and merry christmas to you.

and welcome to RTB.

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[lethargiic]

Originally Posted by CARLiTO_

Didn't snakes evolve from Lizards?

Basically yes, they did evolve from lizards..

the whole thing imo is surrounded by darwin vs the bible.
just gotta keep in mind that we all have to respect other people's belief's when it comes to the their faith and religion. can't just impose our own simply because we know what snakes are like. The only reason they were cursed was because the devil appeared to Eve in the form of a serpent who convinced her to sin against God n blah blah blah.


Anyway...what worked for me was to give them some food for thought...ie venomous snake research for anti-venom etc... quirky facts that shows snakes are not as bad as they seem to be...

	In My Opinon IMO = In My Opinion and IMHO = In My Honest Opinion

[lethargiic]

Originally Posted by lethargiic

Basically yes, they did evolve from lizards..

erm that's based on my opinion..btw...lol

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[Stormyva]

It's a shame but a lot of closed and/or feeble minded individuals believe that snakes are evil. I am considered a devil worshiper by an individual at work because I keep snakes, in fact I dont even believe in a devil Anywhoo..... snakes have always had a very interesting way of bringing about controversy so if you are going to keep them be prepared to experience a very wide variety of reactions towards your new hobby.

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[StevenLeeAugust]

I just read a question like this the other day at http://www.answersingenesis.org/ so here it is…
Hope it helps…

What about the snake in the Garden of Eden?
Answer by Mike Kruger
Question
I have a Genesis Bible question: When God ‘found out’ that the serpent had deceived Eve, He cursed him and commanded him to crawl on his belly from now on. Now, I take it that the ‘serpent’ was a snake. But Satan was only using the FORM of a snake for his purposes. Why curse an entire species of animal for something Satan did? And did this mean that snakes didn't ‘crawl on their bellies’ before God cursed them?
Jeff
Answer
It certainly is a good question and worth some Biblical reflection. Indeed, the entire story of the temptation and Fall is somewhat confusing at points and can present various questions in people’s minds. So, let me deal with his questions one at a time.
Question 1
His first question is ‘But Satan was only using the FORM of a snake for his purposes. Why curse an entire species of animal for something Satan did?’ It needs to be noted from the outset that Satan certainly did use a real, literal, physical snake as his instrument for tempting Eve. Satan is the master as posing himself as something else and not tempting someone with his full identity exposed.
In terms of why God would ‘curse’ the snake for what Satan did, let me offer the following considerations:
a. The snake would be a forever symbolic reminder of the Fall.
Everytime man would see a serpent he would be reminded that it was the instrument by which he fell into sin. Man was to have dominion and rule over the animal kingdom and yet it was through an animal that he was led astray! That tells man something about the seriousness of the original Fall and also about how culpable he really is.
b. The snake would be a symbolic reminder of Satan's future destruction.
The snake imagery is picked up in Genesis 3:15 when the snake is told: ‘he [the woman's seed] will crush your head and you will strike his heel.’ The snake was cursed to crawl on the ground and therefore susceptible to man’s heel crushing its head (this vulnerability is a direct result of Satan’s sin). This is a foreshadowing of what will really happen to Satan someday. The seed (Jesus Christ) of the woman will crush the head of Satan and His heel will be struck (the crucifixion) in the process.
In addition, the curse upon the physical snake was reflective of the actual curse upon Satan himself: crawling low on the belly was a mark of deep degradation (Lev 11:42) and eating dust was also a sign of despair (Micah 7:17). All these factors combine to form very vivid symbolism of what awaits Satan in the end.
c. Animals were culpable when used as instruments of sin.
Interestingly, elsewhere in the OT when an animal is an instrument in sins against nature he is to be slain along with the man (Lev 20:15,16). Is that because there is real blame and guilt on the part of the animal? No, but because the instrument is often broken/punished along with the actual perpetrator. Chrysostom summed this idea up well:
‘Just as a loving father when punishing the murderer of his son, might snap in two the sword or dagger with which the murder had been committed.’
d. God is the potter and can use some clay for common purposes and other clay for noble purposes (Romans 9).
God has the right to curse an animal in a specific way due to the sin of another; He did that very thing in regard to Adam’s sin. When Adam sinned and threw all of creation into chaos, God cursed the ground so that it produced thorns. Was the ground to blame? Was it actually guilty? No, but it was rightly punished due to the sin of another and is a symbolic reminder to us of that very sin.
Question 2
The second question posed in the letter was: ‘And did this mean that snakes didn't “crawl on their bellies” before God cursed them?’
The simple answer is: yes. It is clear from this passage that a physical change took place in the serpent as a result of Satan’s actions.
Now, it is very difficult (and perhaps impossible) for us to reconstruct what the snake looked like originally with the amount of information Genesis gives us. It would simply be speculation. However, it need not be an intellectual difficulty to imagine physical changes in creation as a result of sin. In fact, real physical change took place in the woman’s body so that she produced pain in child birth (3:16); physical change took place in the land so that it was more difficult to cultivate (3:17-1, and physical change took place in plants so that they produced thorns (3:1.
It must be remembered that imagining a world not cursed by sin is a very difficult thing. Can you imagine a world with no death, thorns, pain, disease, difficulty, struggle for survival? The world before the Fall was radically different. So, there is no difficulty in imagining the serpent as changing to crawl on its belly even though we are not totally sure what he was like before.
The hope is that someday this curse will be reversed; in the new heavens and the new earth there will be no more pain, disease, sickness or thorns. The wolf will lay down with the lamb and the lion will eat straw like an ox (Isaiah 11). And a little child will lead them.

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[lethargiic]

Ya'll are a bunch of sinners.. period end of story.....

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[JuliusSqueezer]

I think it's funny how people pick bits and pieces of the old testiment to follow even though the new testiment contridicts so much of it. Should we also stone gay people to death as the old testiment suggests we do? or do we judge not lest we be judged like the new testiment teaches? The old testiment is a compilation of stories that could not possibly have been kept accurate through thousands of years before written language and any concept of a need to record history. what little fossil evidence there is suggests that modern leggless snakes have been around for millions of years...not thousands like is suggested in the old testiment story of Adam and Eve.

Darwin v/s the bible? why? Maybe God did create everything INCLUDING our ability to evolve and make needed changes to coincide with ecological changes that naturally occur. Both sides can be right. Even the big bang theory doesn't really go against christianity. Where in the bible does it say that God created the universe "quietly"?

[buck2003]

wow some long post above which I havent read all of (no time) so I apologise if I repeat anything someones said. As for snakes evolving from lizards I thought that was so too, isnt the spurs on a boa the remainder of what use to be legs? As fo teaching your co-workers the value of snakes ect, I'd say that if they were face to face with a 12ft female boa, they'd need to show respect lol. Certainly not something that can be shunned away, once you have there attention show em the beuty of snakes markings colour and there abilities. I'm always fascinated and so are my kids.

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	Spurs A pair of claws on each side of the cloaca which assist in mating. A spur is much more defined on a male

[JuliusSqueezer]

It was long thought that snakes evolved from mosasaurs but the "missing link" or links have proved quite evasive. Until fairly recently a couple of discoveries have shed new light. Currently it is thought that snakes probably evolved and lost legs several times over the eons. The closest possible "missing link" to modern boas and pythons was not a lizard but a cretaceous period animal called Pachyrhachis problematicus having fossils dated back anywhere fro 144-65 million years ago. This auquatic serpent had small rear limbs but likely did not use them for anything. It can easily be tied to the snake family tree but cannot be tied to mosasaur. The other discovery was an animal called haasiophis terrasanctus. And yes, anal spurs on modern boas and pythons (anaconda is a boa) are remnants of rear limbs and they are the only snakes with a pelvis...however primitive it may be. A quick google search on pachyrhachis problimaticus and haasiophis terrasanctus may answer a lot of your questions on the best current guesses concerning the origin of modern snakes. If it is ever proven that snakes lost and regained limbs multiple times, this will prove Dollo's law wrong... that evolution cannot reverse itself.

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	Spurs A pair of claws on each side of the cloaca which assist in mating. A spur is much more defined on a male

[lethargiic]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

Darwin v/s the bible? why? Maybe God did create everything INCLUDING our ability to evolve and make needed changes to coincide with ecological changes that naturally occur. Both sides can be right. Even the big bang theory doesn't really go against christianity. Where in the bible does it say that God created the universe "quietly"?

Only reason i say that is because darwin's theories of evolution contradict what the bible says on how man was created. Charles Darwin said that men evolved from monkeys yet God created man on the 6th day, and then a woman (go figure...) so he would have a partner in life. So i see it as a conflict of each view. Its more like separation of church and science rather than church and state.

I'd go into this a lil more because the whole idea interests me and I could go on about forever but I'm going home and my net is down for the time being..lol

[JuliusSqueezer]

Maybe God created a monkey with the ability to evolve to be a human later so it could make survival adjustments as it went so as not to throw the poor creature into shock. The bible never goes into much if any detail as to HOW anything was "created". I don't know why it is so offensive to so many people that science suggests that things may have come in stages. To me, that would be an even bigger compliment to devine intellect and dispells nothing of the biblical claims of creation.

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[schmelkdog]

I usually stay out of religious discussions for the most part. As the son of a preacher I've seen alot of folks get real worked up on different sides of certain issues. Here's my one take on the creation story. Says God did it in 7 days right? well rested on the 7th,,,well what is a day to god? can we really understand that..........oh well the only thing I know for sure is that our snakes are all angels!

[RevMojo]

If Reverend Mojo owns one, they can't be that bad.

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[gruvinbass]

I get quite a bit of that as well. Mostly I just ignore it, as, generally speaking, you can't convince people who hold beliefs that deeply.

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[EyeOfTheStorm]

There is definitely a large "grey area" with alot of unanswered questions. The Bible has been translated and rewritten so many times of there years, one of the biggest changes, when King James wanted the words to "roll off the toungue" better. All these translations and rewriting, it is impossibe to say that it all got passed on without missing things, or gaining things. I personally have always wanted to know if the issue with Ireland and snakes has ever been scientifically contested(St. Patrick banishing all snakes from Ireland). I had always heard a wives tale as a kid that you could bring dirt back from Ireland, spread it around it your home, and it would repel snakes. Never have known the validity of this myth. I think the paranoia in society towards snakes is a result of many things, i.e. religion, freak stories in the papers. However, the world would be overrun with rodents if there were no snakes, every creature has its purpose.(still trying to figure out the mosquito's purpose.lol) The way I have always combatted the "taboo-devil-worshipin-freak" stereotype with those "herpetalogically-declined" individuals, is just by advising them that given the chance, they might actually find them just as fascinating as I do. My wife was deathly afraid of snakes till I convinced her to allow me to bring one home. She now handles them regularly. It's somewhat like old people interacting with VCR's or computers.

[ChicagoCubs22]

Well, being 16 years old and all, i do not know the bible like the back of my hand just yet, yet i am a christian, and i find my faith in god and prayer to be my comfort. Yet after i learned about darwin i was dumbfounded. All i have to say is that i think that it is meant to be stipulation about everything in the world. That only leads to the final product/conclusion. Its good that we have the scientific explanation vs religious so that it is easier to decipher each one. I believe that there is some answer that incorporates the basics of each arguement, making neither the sole reason nor completely false. It all has to be peiced together.

As for your co-worker, tell him to keep in mind that all creatures on this earth are "gods creatures" and tell him that snakes these days cannot speak. Dont try the "amazing and interesting creature" bit because i know as well as many on this site know that that doesnt convince everyone. Make it clear to him that he can beleive whatever he wants to believe and you can believe and inquire in anything you want to, and that includes snakes.

BTW i have a female colombian RTB, a Male Ball Python, and a male bearded dragon

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[EyeOfTheStorm]

Originally Posted by EyeOfTheStorm

I personally have always wanted to know if the issue with Ireland and snakes has ever been scientifically contested(St. Patrick banishing all snakes from Ireland).

Interesting article, also explains a bit on snake evolution.

http://www.txtwriter.com/Onscience/A...patsnakes.html