need everyone's imput

[NicoleRussell]

At first I was just looking for lizard people to comment but when I thought of all the brainpower in the snake staff here at RTB and some of the members---I changed my mind. This is all opinion stuff and I would like everyone's.
Iguanas have been sold/imported/studied to death and basically people have agreed that a diet minus animal protien is better overall for the health of the animal. After being studied in their natural environment they were said to eat little or no animal protien and their bodies seem to do better without it. Some people will feed a little here and there but basically they are herbivores.
Now cyclura are basically said to have similar needs in diet. At least that is what I have always thought. Someone big in the cyclura community went into the field and studied certain species of cyclura this year and his findings were a little suprising. After returning from a few gorgeous islands--he claims (and others also feel) that cylcura in nature will eat insects, carrion and plant matter. He feels a diet lacking animal protien is bad for them.
Then there is a segment of the population who feel completely opposite and they seem to be raisng healthy cyclura as well.
My two babies are just that---babies. They have been fed a diet void of all animal protien since I got them as hatchlings. After reading this info I decided to see how they would react to a plate of superworms, then a few pinkies.
The movement of the superworms drove them crazy....they saw the shadows of the worms through the plastic plate and nearly ripped them from my hands. Then when offered pinks...the rhino never had a prayer. The Blue Rock Ig downed the whole bunch...never came up for air.
They did not hesitate at all and their instincts kicked in immediately.
What does this mean? I'm not sure.
I have always contended that lizards are smarter then people when it comes to their needs. They will always choose the better bulb, basking temp and hide. As far as diet goes I would think that anything I offer them they would have a choice with in the wild....and in nature they will choose what is healthy for them. A Komodo Dragon will eat anything meat---but their bodies are made that way.
Why would they go so crazy over something that is bad for them? I plan on posting this on the UVB list as well since I really admire a few of the members there....I will also email Bert at agama.
What does everyone here at RTB think?

	Ultra Violet Radiation B Ultra Violet Radiation B

[Ed_r]

Why would they go so crazy over something that is bad for them?

The same way we all go crazy over pizza, candy, chips, Soda, Mc Donalds, and other disgusting foods we all crave.

I would take a closer look as to the season they are there? Fruit supply greens supply (types) maybe the insects are a better alternative than what is available.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[eddie]

Why would they go so crazy over something that is bad for them?

I have the same thoughts when I see people buying Hagen Daas..

As for their diet, I am sure that much more is to be discovered in the wild, just like other critters, such as pink toe Ts being labled as bird eaters way back when.. GTPs and other arb snakes being thought to only eat birds for a long time..

	Green Tree Python Green Tree Python (Morelia viridis)

[NicoleRussell]

Animals were more readily abundant on these island then then others (where the whole cyclura habitat is being destroyed)---he noted that the cylura were visably larger as well.
It's not the same with lizards I think Ed---take mine for example.
They have access to fruits, veggies---everything. I have never offered animal products. The first time I do, they go wild like they haven't eaten in months.
With people we are notoriously unhealthy. We eat garbage when given the choice and sometimes smoke and do all sorts of things an animal---working on pure instinct would not. If they are out in a jungle somewhere---the world is their oyster. Why would they choose carion if they are not omniviores?

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[NicoleRussell]

eddie that's another thing---I think snakes are opportunistic feeders too. But we all know for a fact they don't eat fruit. They are totally carnivorous. You can through apples in the cage all day and everyone agrees (including the sanke) that it will not get eaten.
With this though---it seems when given the choice these guys want whole prey.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[eddie]

Yes.. but snakes have also been known to eat heat pads and towels

The snakes and tarantula reference was towards bad or incomplete studies/observations in the field, just to give an example of a few that had been noted as doing something after one or two observations or poor trains of thought in study

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[John_White]

After returning from a few gorgeous islands--he claims (and others also feel) that cylcura in nature will eat insects, carrion and plant matter. He feels a diet lacking animal protien is bad for them.

Not a very strong pro animal protein argument. Does he have any facts to back-up his statement?
I don't know much about cyclura, but I'm sure some invertebrates are consumed (inadvertently?) as they forage in the wild.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[NicoleRussell]

[quote="eddie"]Yes.. but snakes have also been known to eat heat pads and towels
quote]

but isn't that when they are in the middle of downing a rodent and the dishtowel gets in the way...or when something is scented as a rodent? I mean they basically eat what they perceive to be animal matter. They would never pick an albino bannana and eat it knowingly right?

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[eddie]

I guess it depends whether the monkey lets go or holds onto the bananna while the snake is eating it

[NicoleRussell]

John it was an observation on his part. Basically he observed then eating animal protien. Now if you examine the bellies of dead cyclura you can probably be unsure as to how the food was consumed (accidentily or purposely)--but if you are observing animals in their natural habitat you can be more sure of the way they eat and if they ate out of choice or not.
My animals were more suprising then the ones he watched because I have been caring for them in my home and thought I knew their habits. I of course do not want to introduce them to anything on an ongoing basis that they would suffere ill effects from either. I was very suprised though to see their reaction to something I thought would not interest them.......

[NicoleRussell]

Originally Posted by eddie

I guess it depends whether the monkey lets go or holds onto the bananna while the snake is eating it

There you go---

[NicoleRussell]

BOBMAC's response:

Hello Nichole,

Thank you for the kind intro. I have very specific thoughts on diet.
But I’m
going to include my friend AJ Gutmann (ISS) in this conversation simply
because she is most likely one the most experienced advanced cyclura
rehabilitators in the states.

When I read about the breeding colonies on the islands to help
repopulate
cyclura species, it seems that the hatchlings do better when fed a diet
containing insects as well as the greens. I would believe that this
would be
more important to juvies and hatchlings then adults. I stop feeding
heavy
protein greens and vegetables to all adults.

As far as iguanas knowing instinctively what is good for them goes I
could
give you a hundred stories but will limite it to two.

My six year old female can smell cheese of any kind from across the
room.
She will do Rocky the flying iguana (her name is Rocky) to get to you
in
leaps and bounds and attack you for your cheese. She would live (and
die) on
a cheese diet if I let her. She has been forced slurry fed for the last
year
and a half since her spay and loosing her appetite (except for cheese).
She
does have small eating spells from time to time.

One of my older boys had an Iguana iguana during one of our “no
talking”
spells. Although he fed it ig salad, he also fed it crickets and
pinkies.
After a while it wouldn’t eat the salad but would munch all the pinkies
Jason would feed it. It was huge by the age of 4, and then died.

>>Someone big in the cyclura community went into the field and studied
>>certain species of cyclura this year and his findings were a little
>>suprising. After returning from a few gorgeous islands--he claims
(and
>>others also feel) that cylcura in nature will eat insects, carrion
and
>>plant matter. He feels a diet lacking animal protien is bad for
them.<<

I think that it comes back to a good variety and good sense. Ground
dwelling
iguana species are more apt to eat crickets along with their vegetation
and
therefore some insect in the diet would “balance” it. Feeding pinkie
mice, I
believe, would be a mistake.

I would be very interested in what AJ thinks about this. She knows
everyone
that would be considered “Someone big in the cyclura community”.

Best to you,


BobMac

I will post any feedback I get from the ISS...because it's all so interesting to me, and hopefully some of you.

[John_White]

Normally, when dietary studies are preformed, wild specimens are captured and a stomach flush is performed. This gives researchers a chance to study the diet of live animals. It allows diet to studied in correlation with the animals health, age and habitat I would assume that this type of study has been done on cyclura?

Of course dietary needs of wild cyclura may differ from captive specimens.

[NicoleRussell]

John:
I was just typing this to Bob. I was wondering what type of boost we give captive specimens by putting them on a "diet" (as far as longevity) and also if you think about the amount of exercise a wild lizard gets as compared to any captive animal...it must be a factor in overall health, weight and mortality.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters