Strange unexplained deaths

LS84 · #1 (**permalink**) 03-11-2010, 05:20 AM

Obviously I am not asking anyone to diagnose my issues over the internet, but I wanted to hear any opinions anyone might have.

This all started about a year ago. I lost a small burmese python that refused to eat since I acquired him.

A few months later I lost a seemingly healthy, nice weight ball python who I had since he was a hatchling. He ate regularly and had no strange symptoms. I just found him dead one day in his cage.

Then I lost a baby corn snake a few months later, again, one who ate regularly and was found one day dead out of nowhere.

Then I lost a baby sand boa, also out of nowhere.

The deaths stopped for a while, until I started losing hatchling crested geckos I was breeding last summer. 7 out of 8 hatchlings died within a few weeks of hatching. I assumed that the pair I was breeding were passing some kind of genetic problem, because all my hatchlings from a different pair were thriving.

About a month ago, my last hatching out of the 8 died, living almost a year.

My Russian tortoise passed away in November, granted he was supposedly close to 50 years old, it still seemed like he was completely healthy and thriving and suddenly died in his sleep.

Just today, I found my nice, big, fat healthy gargoyle gecko dead, stuck to his screen top. He was alive two days ago, and ate all the food in his dish that was given to him two days ago.

As you can see, it's been a rough year for me. I did not start assuming that the snake and gecko deaths were tied together. I just assumed it was coincidence. Now I am starting to wonder if there is a disease going around my animals, which are all in close proximity to each other in my basement. Or perhaps some kind of fumes or bad air quality? We did have a radon test done and there was a reading of 7, which will be fixed this spring. In the mean time we are ventilating the basement with window fans. But there isn't too much I can find regarding radon and small animals.

All of my animals live in nice, large cages. The snakes have boaphiles, clean water, and were fed f/t rats. The geckos lived in 20 gallon longs, and exo terra terrariums, and were fed CGD. All had water bowls as well and were misted daily. I cannot see any reason for their deaths in regards to their care.

Any comments, advice, or similar experiences would be appreciated.

Stargazer · #2 (**permalink**) 03-11-2010, 05:34 AM

I'm so sorry for your losses. You must be devastated losing so many. Have you had a necropsy done on any of them? It might give you the answer.

BlackLava · #3 (**permalink**) 03-11-2010, 05:55 AM

holy crap thats alot of losses!!

sorry to hear you lost your babies

btw, what is radon?

spix14 · #4 (**permalink**) 03-11-2010, 06:04 AM

Very sorry for our your losses.

Agreed, necropsies would be useful in seeing if the deaths were linked. Do you use any chemicals to clean cages? Do you use any pesticides near them?

LS84 · #5 (**permalink**) 03-11-2010, 04:46 PM

I do not use any chemicals at all to clean cages, only natural stuff, vinegar and water, or unscented natural cleaners. No air fresheners or anything either. I also have two cats and three ferrets, so I am very careful to not use any chemicals in the basement at all. I use cypress mulch for the small snakes, newspaper for the bigger guys. Eco earth for the geckos.

Radon is a radioactive material under the ground that can seep into your home through cracks, usually in your basement. In humans, long term exposure can cause lung cancer. There isn't much info about animals though. A reading of anything over 4 I think needs to be fixed with a fan that sucks the radon out from under your house. Everyone should do a test for radon, no matter where you live. One house could have no reading, and the house next store could get a reading of 50. I think now it's a regular part of buying a new home too, passing a radon test.

morti · #6 (**permalink**) 03-11-2010, 05:02 PM

Wow Lisa....

I am having a hard time thinking of any disease that would affect both snakes and small geckos and yet be asymptomatic.

I am sorry this is happening, but I don't have any guess what it could be if it is even related.

nitram · #7 (**permalink**) 03-11-2010, 05:41 PM

i know nothing of the matter, but the only variable i can think of is the radon.
radioactive material definately affects animals. i dont know about radon but i read on nuclear blast tests being done on this island that basically killed everything off. definately something id consider.
sucks about losing your animals, id be devistated. hope no one else dies, good look detecting the problem.

spix14 · #8 (**permalink**) 03-11-2010, 08:31 PM

Maybe have your water tested? I can't imagine anything that would kill small critters and not at least make people sick, but it's the only thing I can think of that they'd have in common.

John_White · #9 (**permalink**) 03-11-2010, 09:37 PM

I think as Stargazer suggested, a necropsy may expose the problem. About the only bug I can think of that may match some of the deaths but not all is cryptosporidium. See: Cryptosporidium: Health Threat to Humans and Reptiles

Perhaps the high level of radon is affecting the immune system of the reptiles?

I'm sorry for your losses.

jbd123 · #10 (**permalink**) 03-11-2010, 09:40 PM

I am so sorry for your losses. It really could be something in the water or the radon.

John, that Cryptosporidium is really terrifying to me. Should I just buy water jugs for my herps instead of using filtered city water?

John_White · #11 (**permalink**) 03-11-2010, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbd123

John, that Cryptosporidium is really terrifying to me. Should I just buy water jugs for my herps instead of using filtered city water?

I've used tap water for decades and haven't had any issues that I'm aware of.

Back when I bred snakes, I accepted a California kingsnake from a friend and didn't follow my standard quarantine procedure. The cal king looked good and ate a few times. After about a month it started to lose weight and regurgitate meals, a few weeks later it was dead. Over the next couple months many of my snakes started to lose weight and regurgitate meals. Had several necropsies and pathology exams preformed and they came back positive for crypto. I watched in horror as my entire collection (about 200 snakes) withered away and died.

Hopefully LS84 is crypto free.

Stargazer · #12 (**permalink**) 03-12-2010, 08:34 PM

That's pretty scary, John. Can it appear at any time in tap water? I've been using tap water for 5 years with no problems.

Also, what about some type of mold?

Akureyri · #13 (**permalink**) 03-12-2010, 09:57 PM

My guys are spoiled and get bottled water. I don't trust the tap water here for myself, im surely not going to trust it for my guys. I also agree with Star, Get a necropsy and pay to get the histopathology. If its something treatable, the necropsy can help you catch it before anyone else passes.

HERPHAPPY · #14 (**permalink**) 03-13-2010, 01:57 AM

First off, sorry for your losses! Hate to say this, but alot of studies show bottled water is no better than tap, and often IS tap water with a higher price tag! I'd suggest BOILING enough tap for your reptiles to drink & bathe...often tap water has traces of things that can make small animals ill, but not us (or larger pets, like dogs & cats, with better immune systems). I used to have a problem occasionally with my mice during the summer in the desert, getting a waterborne illness...sure was a pain! (treatable with doxycycline, but you lose the babies & can't feed off the treated adults; many survived to continue the colony at least...) (My rats & hamsters never got sick though...better immunity than mice! Same water & proximity to the mice, not one illness!) You know it could be what they TREAT the water with too, rather than pathogens surviving...??? Good luck...hope no more losses!

snakefreak86 · #15 (**permalink**) 03-13-2010, 02:28 AM

sorry for your loss it could be cross contamination of food sources also is your basement finished cause it could be mold spores it could also be air quality once again sorry for your loss

LS84 · #16 (**permalink**) 03-14-2010, 05:47 AM

It is a finished basement, but "finished" as in when the house was first built in the 50's. Wood paneling and old tiles. There very well could be mold, another idea we had was the sewer line leaking methane gases, which can happen when the pipe dries up if it's not being used.

I just fed all the snakes today, 3 red tails, 3 corns, and 2 kings. They all ate and are acting completely normal. Other than the necropsy, I am going to keep a record (which I should be doing anyway) just to help with remembering any weird behaviors or things I noticed about the basement or during feeding time.

Thanks to everyone for being so kind.

Stargazer · #17 (**permalink**) 03-14-2010, 05:49 AM

Any way you could move them up to the main part of the house, just to be on the safe side?

HERPHAPPY · #18 (**permalink**) 03-14-2010, 06:08 AM

Another thought is the quality of the feeder rodents? The red dye in dogfood is both toxic to rodents and to the snakes which consume them. There are alot of cheapskates breeding/selling rodents for snake food who don't think twice about feeding dogfood to their rodents. (It's like the ad for mouse chow, where they say "Feed your rodents the BEST...just don't tell them why!") But that still would not explain your tortoise & geckoes... So while I'd say be aware of food issues, this seems more environmental to me? Or a very sneaky pathogen... Has the house (where the snakes are) been sprayed for mold, or with pesticides? any furnace fumes settling in the basement?

Icicle · #19 (**permalink**) 03-14-2010, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LS84

It is a finished basement, but "finished" as in when the house was first built in the 50's. Wood paneling and old tiles. There very well could be mold, another idea we had was the sewer line leaking methane gases, which can happen when the pipe dries up if it's not being used.

Maybe you should have your basement check for Methane. And I know one simple at home test you can do. Get a Canary from the pet store, if the Canary dies you know you have a methane problem.

And to Star, this method was used by coal miners back in the day, before fancy meters.

HERPHAPPY · #20 (**permalink**) 03-15-2010, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icicle

Maybe you should have your basement check for Methane. And I know one simple at home test you can do. Get a Canary from the pet store, if the Canary dies you know you have a methane problem.

And to Star, this method was used by coal miners back in the day, before fancy meters.

I wonder if snakes are really that sensitive to methane? I sure don't know? -but the reason I question that as a posible cause is that they have a fairly low consumption of air...seems like if it was enough to kill reptiles, the humans around would be noticing something amiss?!?

(I can just see her trying to return the canary, too...lol! "It's too alive, I don't want/need it...")

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