Not Ibd!!

jbd123 · #1 (**permalink**) 02-27-2009, 11:52 PM

I haven't put up a topic on this yet, but I just wanted to tell you all something that I have learned today.

So, about a month ago, my redtail, Peaches, was acting strangely. I was holding her one day, and as I went to put her back in her enclosure, she started "spinning" her head around. ...boy, did I freak. I immediately called the vet and made an appointment for the end of the week. I really thought that I had a snake with IBD, and I was DEVASTATED.

I took her to the vet that Friday. When I took her out of her pillowcase, she was unable to right herself. I was crying, my husband was trying to calm me down. The vet performed a few tests (balled her up and set her upside down, etc) and she failed to pass any of them. I really thought we'd be going home without a snake, and have to perform biopsies on everyone else. I'm very good with my quarantine and handling practices, but I was so terrified.

The vet told me not to worry: IBD is actually very rare. I knew that was true, but every time I would search the symptoms Peaches was having online, the ONLY thing that would come up was IBD IBD IBD. Nothing else. He said, more likely then not, that it was an inner ear infection. Really? An Inner ear infection?

It didn't give me any hope at all, to be honest. I had never heard or researched anything of the sort. He prescribed her baytril, said she would improve in a few weeks if it was, in fact, bacterial. I walked out hoping for the best, but expecting the worst.

Well, I gave her injections for a month. She never missed a meal, had a perfect shed, and seemed to be improving. I took her back for a checkup today, and the vet said she's getting better, gaining weight (and lots of it) and will continue to improve until she's back to normal. I was so relieved.

I just wanted to share this with everyone: even when it seems like symptoms point to IBD and there's nothing that can be done...it can possibly be something else (in fact, according to the vet, it usually is)! I am so relieved and happy...and Peaches is hungry: I better go feed her.

fuglyfarmhand · #2 (**permalink**) 02-27-2009, 11:56 PM

Good to hear she is gettin better

Oroborous · #3 (**permalink**) 02-27-2009, 11:59 PM

It's nice to hear a positive story!
Thanks for sharing.

stu · #4 (**permalink**) 02-28-2009, 12:24 AM

Weird, I didn't think snakes had remnants of an inner ear.

BlackLava · #5 (**permalink**) 02-28-2009, 12:28 AM

oh what a relief!! glad to hear its not IBD

Reptscue · #6 (**permalink**) 02-28-2009, 12:37 AM

Not to bring the party down... but take this from personal experience.... A boa that shows symptoms of IBD. Can "get better" and get worse again.... Not usually with pythons. It seems to attack them quicker.

LooseAFur · #7 (**permalink**) 02-28-2009, 12:56 AM

Well hopefully thats not the case but do keep an eye on her......CONGRATS if she is healed!

jbd123 · #8 (**permalink**) 02-28-2009, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reptscue

Not to bring the party down... but take this from personal experience.... A boa that shows symptoms of IBD. Can "get better" and get worse again.... Not usually with pythons. It seems to attack them quicker.

Ah...now I'm paranoid again. I understand that it's possible that she has something incurable and we just caught the bacterial part of the problem, but I'm confident that she is going to be fine. I appreciate your input...it's better to consider all the facts then just to throw out the ones you dont want to hear. Trust me: strict quarantine practices will be carried out on her and everyone else. I really posted this thread because I wanted there to be an "article" online that could give some people hope and encouragement if their snake is showing a symptom like this. I have a feeling she is going to be fine.

I will keep everyone posted on her progress.

kellymack515 · #9 (**permalink**) 02-28-2009, 01:44 AM

for you and

for Peaches. I'm so glad things are turning out alright!

skiploder · #10 (**permalink**) 02-28-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbt123

Ah...now I'm paranoid again. I understand that it's possible that she has something incurable and we just caught the bacterial part of the problem, but I'm confident that she is going to be fine. I appreciate your input...it's better to consider all the facts then just to throw out the ones you dont want to hear. Trust me: strict quarantine practices will be carried out on her and everyone else. I really posted this thread because I wanted there to be an "article" online that could give some people hope and encouragement if their snake is showing a symptom like this. I have a feeling she is going to be fine.

I will keep everyone posted on her progress.

I'm not saying your animal has IBD, but IBD often causes secondary infections - stomatitis, septicemia, skin infections, etc. These secondary infections can be treated with antibiotics and will get better but that doesn't rule out IBD.

Biopsies are the best way to rule out IBD.

Having said that, there are other diseases that can cause secondary infections. Your snake could have had a simple bacterial infection, however, the neurological symptoms seem to point to either some sort of toxic event, an overheating issue or another disease.

IBD isn't the only affliction in snakes that can cause neurological distress - unfortunately it is everyone's first "diagnosis" when they arise. In fact, IBD can strike and never present with the "classic" symptoms.

I had a dwarf boa that was becoming anorexic and was presenting with mild skin infections. Antibiotics eventually cleared these issues. Blood tests and two liver biopsies were done to be on the safe side and came back negative for IBD.

He started eating again and the symptoms went away. Three months later, during his yearly check up, the vet told me that she'd like to try an esophogeal tonsil biopsy - even though he was in apparent good health. This biopsy tested positive for IBD.

I owned this animal for almost six years and for over five years he was asymptomatic and never showed any neurological signs. My female dwarf boa, who had never shown any symptoms, also tested positive (they had been bred in the past).

Luckily, none of my other animals have tested positive for the disease. I had all of my aspidites and antaresia (and my one ball python) biopsied at considerable expense and they were clear.

There is a lot of misinformation out there on IBD. I had two boas that showed no "classic" signs come down with the disease after over five years in my care, when none of my other animals (pythons and colubrids) have ever tested positive as carriers.

jbd123 · #11 (**permalink**) 02-28-2009, 05:11 PM

That's very strange-and actually a little terrifying to me! But thanks for the information. I will call my vet and ask if he would perform a liver biopsy on her, if he recommends it in the near future. But I've heard from many people that a liver biopsy, even if it comes back negative, is truly inconclusive.
Tonsil biopsy? That's a new one...is that a little more invasive/last resort than a liver biopsy (not that biopsies aren't invasive enough)?

Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it. IBD is so confusing, I've heard so many different things about it...

skiploder · #12 (**permalink**) 02-28-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbt123

That's very strange-and actually a little terrifying to me! But thanks for the information. I will call my vet and ask if he would perform a liver biopsy on her, if he recommends it in the near future. But I've heard from many people that a liver biopsy, even if it comes back negative, is truly inconclusive.
Tonsil biopsy? That's a new one...is that a little more invasive/last resort than a liver biopsy (not that biopsies aren't invasive enough)?

Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it. IBD is so confusing, I've heard so many different things about it...

I would strongly suggest you Google Dr. Elliot Jacobson and read everything he's written on IBD. There is a lot of misinformation out there that runs the gamut from hysteria to what I feel is unwise downplaying of the disease. My Vet claims that the true prevalence is unknown as relatively few owners biopsy their animals............

The biopsies are not as invasive as you may imagine - it's no walk in the park, but your vet can explain the procedure.

Biopises are not inconclusive per se - they are simply dependent on where the inclusion cells are. Several different organs can targeted. If the liver comes back negative for IBD, it means that (1) the animal doesn't have the disease or (2) the inclusion cells aren't present in the liver. That doesn't mean they can't be found in the tonsils, the gall bladder, etc, etc.

jbd123 · #13 (**permalink**) 02-28-2009, 06:36 PM

I have heard of him, and read his article on IBD. It was very interesting to see how far he took the study. I actually emailed him about it but haven't gotten a response (I'm sure he's busy). I even think I remember him saying something to the effect that some animals can be carriers, but never show symptoms, pass it onto their offspring and mates, and they never show symptoms either. It's a very strange disease...

After talking to my vet on the phone today about it more extensively, he says that there is something he has studied about captive collections. Some snakes are inbred so much to the point where certain genomes that should be present to combat certain viruses/bacteria are just not there. That makes these animals more susceptible to certain infections, etc. He really thinks this is where IBD possibly took prevalence in captive collections, and why you never find wild caught animals with IBD (at least as far as he knows). He's been treating reptiles for over 20 years, and understands the IBD scare, but says it's really relatively rare.

It seems like IBD just isn't very easy to diagnose until it's too late, typically.

How much did it cost for you to get a liver biopsy for your snake? My vet is very reasonable with prices, but I'd like to start saving some money on the side for a procedure.

skiploder · #14 (**permalink**) 02-28-2009, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbt123

I have heard of him, and read his article on IBD. It was very interesting to see how far he took the study. I actually emailed him about it but haven't gotten a response (I'm sure he's busy). I even think I remember him saying something to the effect that some animals can be carriers, but never show symptoms, pass it onto their offspring and mates, and they never show symptoms either. It's a very strange disease...

After talking to my vet on the phone today about it more extensively, he says that there is something he has studied about captive collections. Some snakes are inbred so much to the point where certain genomes that should be present to combat certain viruses/bacteria are just not there. That makes these animals more susceptible to certain infections, etc. He really thinks this is where IBD possibly took prevalence in captive collections, and why you never find wild caught animals with IBD (at least as far as he knows). He's been treating reptiles for over 20 years, and understands the IBD scare, but says it's really relatively rare.

It seems like IBD just isn't very easy to diagnose until it's too late, typically.

How much did it cost for you to get a liver biopsy for your snake? My vet is very reasonable with prices, but I'd like to start saving some money on the side for a procedure.

The biopsies (both the procedure and the lab test) were around $275.00.

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