RTB went into epileptic seizures?

marty.sjolund · #1 (**permalink**) 04-15-2002, 09:14 PM

I'm a newb to the herpetology world, and have been excited ever since i got my beautiful 3mo. old baby red tail. When I got the snake as a gift, 4 months ago, I didn't know that some owners recommend a vet visit for a fecal and R.I. to find out if the snake carries any bacterial, viral, or neurological problems/defects..

The Rtb was kept in a 20 gallon aquarium with small brown bark (cedar?) bedding. Temperature was kept at ~90 daytime/Hot side of the aquarium, while the cooler side was kept at ~84. Humidity was Moderate/Temperate (60-70%)..

A couple of months ago, I fed my guy a larger fuzzy grey, he ate it with no problems and I observed a small bulge in his stomach. Two-three days later the bulge was gone. Two weeks later I fed him a white fuzzy mouse, which was about the same size as the grey. He regurgitated the mouse three days later. I waited one week for the next feeding. The next feeding was a very small fuzzy, right before the feeding I moved to a new house [the new location for the aquarium is in a room with no windows, and has a reptile light on 10hrs/day]. Again, he regurgitated the fuzzy one day later. I wasn't sure if humidity was a problem or if he was beginning the shedding process, so I forced him to swim in a bowl of luke warm water for 20-30 mins. He seemed very happy to be clean and looked very healthy for the next two days. . .

I came home from work at 4PM, and noticed Senor Cervantes was lying around like he normally would. I opened his screen and went to touch his back when all of a sudden he twitched very violently (which caused me to pull my hand away), thrusted his head straight up in the air with his mouth open, then immediately turned his head toward the ground and did a nose dive right into the bark. He then started, what I will describe as, seizuring. I thought at first he might have been choking, so I put on my leather gloves and forced his mouth open to make sure there was no bark in his mouth, I found one little piece (from when he nose-dived), and i removed it. I put him back in his cage, and it looked as if all the seizures had stopped for the time being. I checked on him again after one hour and noticed half of his body was in his water bowl, while his top part of the body was out of the water and overturned on to his back. The next couple of hours I observed him acting extremely skittish and wanting to hide underneath his tree-tent, and still shaking/twitching when I got close to him.

At 4AM, the little guy died. What, if anything, could I have done to prevent this, and does this sound like a neurological defect?

Any assistance would be appreciated.
[img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif[/img]
[addsig]

natas · #2 (**permalink**) 04-15-2002, 09:25 PM

I had a similar problem occur once while baby sitting a Albino Burmese Python. The snake was 4.5 ft male and was in good condition...no problems.

Anyway I took the guy out and put him in his feed box....gave him his dead rat and he gulped it up fine.

20 minutes later I decided to put him back in his cage. So I reach behind him and grab him...all of the sudden the snake started to shake viloently for 15-20 seconds...scared the crap out of me. All of the sudden he stayed still for over 5 minutes after he stopped shaking. Then after the 5 minutes he started acting normal.

I put him in his cage and checked on him every 30 minutes...he seemed fine. I took him to the vet the next day and the only thing the vet could conclude was that he had a seisure prolly from me catching him off guard. He said next time to be sure and wave my hand a little in front of him or give some sign after a feeding that I am there so I don't surprise him. The doctor also said that the snake's genetics were prolly the cause of this. The albino's are alot weaker genetically and are more vulnerable to problems....he even said that inbreeding could be a factor.

The snake is now about 7ft long and has never had this problem since...but man was it scary.

One thing to check is for mites. Sometimes mites can cause some weird problems with snakes. I would also take the snake to a vet if your paranoid about all of this.
[addsig]

eddie · #3 (**permalink**) 04-15-2002, 09:33 PM

Hey Marty,
Yes it does sound nuerological, as in a case of IBD, which is an incurable disease that there is very littleknown about, other than it kills.

The only 100% way to know for sure is to get a good reptile vet to do a necropsy on it.
There is no test for IBD at this time except for necropsy...

With all the things you said, such as the regurges and the uncontrollable movements, it sounds like it to me.

If you have any other herps in your house, get them into a separate room from where the other one was.
Don't use its cage for a new herp untill you can sanatize it completely. Everything, all the fixtures, water bowl, lamps etc, EVERYTHING!
The transmission of IBD is unknown also, so clean all.
I also recommend NOT getting another one from that source untill you get results back from the necropsy, just in case.

Welcome to Redtail, just wish it could have been on a happier note.....

[addsig]

Reticu-Lady · #4 (**permalink**) 04-15-2002, 09:33 PM

What an absolutly horrid experience for you (and him)!!! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif[/img] How frightening. I am not that sure of what may have caused all that, but a few thoughts come to mind, now remember, I may be totaly off track here, but...
Had he been treated for mites that you know of? Reason being, I had a baby burm do that once after the petshop I got her from 'treated' all the snakes for mites with pet strips. (The mites lived, she didn't).
Another thought, horrible as it may be, could it possibley have been IBD? Definitly worth asking someone with more experience than I.
Also, did you save the poor little body for a necropsy? A good reptile vet might be able to find something on a post mortem exam. (If you save the body, do not freeze it, put it in a butter tub in the refrigerator, stool sample, too, if he left one).
If the bark in his cage was cedar, that could be a contributing factor as well, cedar (and pine) bark has an oil which is toxic to reptiles. Cedar should never be used for animal bedding. Not even dogs, I have had a dog end up very sick when bedded on cedar. (Not a small dog either, an adult doberman). Please don't use cedar or pine for your reptiles or small animals. Nasty stuff.

I am so deeply sorry for the loss of your Senor Cervantes. (I love that name, what does it mean?). Please don't be too discouraged about keeping snakes in the future. We just need to find out what happened and try again.
Hugs to you. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif[/img]
[addsig]

Reticu-Lady · #5 (**permalink**) 04-15-2002, 09:36 PM

Amazing how fast you all post here, when I wrote mine, there weren't any replies, all of a sudden there are two ahead of mine. *shakes head* You people are amazing! Gotta love y'all
[addsig]

#6 (**permalink**) 04-15-2002, 09:45 PM

Umm Guy/gals..Isn't it the CEDAR that can kill a snake ? I'm always mixing the cedar and cypress with each other when talking. One of the reasons I stay away from it as a substrate for snakes.
JUls, Naja..anyone ??? Can ya clarify on this please ?

Sorry to hear about the loss of your snake [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif[/img]
[addsig]

marty.sjolund · #7 (**permalink**) 04-15-2002, 09:45 PM

Unfortunately, I didn't keep the body..

I have thrown away all the old bedding, and sanitized the aquarium setup.. Getting it ready for a new brazilian rainbow or maybe a sulaweisi retic.

Yeah, it's a complete bummer that this beautiful CRTB had to go through this. From talking to people around Houston, the dealer my friend purchased this snake from is highly reputable. ???

CAn someone tell me more about this IBD? What does it stand for?

And, thank you for the quick feedback!

[addsig]

natas · #8 (**permalink**) 04-15-2002, 09:52 PM

Go to Home Medications and Cures for Common Illnesses and Injuries of Reptiles (just click on the link).

Julius one of our members wrote this article up....its got a little bit of info about IBD in there [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Speaking of which...we should probally make a caresheet or something similar explaining IBD....any takers? If so go to our Work In Progress Forum and start it out there.
[addsig]

#9 (**permalink**) 04-15-2002, 09:54 PM

Thanx Justme ! If I wasn't multi-tasking I would have seen your reply before I did mine.
I wouldn't think it was the IBD thing going on here due to what you were using as a substrate [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]
As for a new snake..Please take the time to research what you want to get for one. I see you have mentioned a BRB and a retic here. Neither are a snake I would reccomend for a new person to the herp world to be considering to keep. Which is what I gather from your posting.
Ask questions and search around the site.. you will find lots of information in relation to such on the site..

oh yeah...

WELCOME TO REDTAILBOA.NET!!!
[addsig]

marty.sjolund · #10 (**permalink**) 04-15-2002, 10:02 PM

>>As for a new snake..Please take the time to research what you want to get for one. I see you have mentioned a BRB and a retic here. Neither are a snake I would reccomend for a new person to the herp world to be considering to keep. Which is what I gather from your posting.

Lori:
What do you mean "to be considering to keep"? Of course I want to keep these snakes and make them part of my family, as long as they keep living.

Natas: I read the article you posted. If the snake was born with this disease, would the other snakes from the batch necessarily exhibit the same neurological traits, and possibly death too?

[addsig]

Karen · #11 (**permalink**) 04-15-2002, 10:25 PM

Welcome to RTB!! What Lori means is that both snakes you listed aren't very good for beginners. The BRB due to care requirements and the retic due to the size it can reach. VERY large, that it would need its own room as an adult. Lets put it this way..... I've kept snakes for awhile and even had them as family pets as a kid and I'm going to look at some tiger retics this weekend. BUT Ive also thought it over for about 2 years now about the cons of having a retic. The reason it took me so long to think about it is because eventually this will be a 20 ft snake thats craps like an elephant and eats large rabbits that have to be killed before feeding to the snake.

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

" The intruder is entering the building master."

]

#12 (**permalink**) 04-15-2002, 10:27 PM

Ok..In reference to ...

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> Lori:
What do you mean "to be considering to keep"? Of course I want to keep these snakes and make them part of my family, as long as they keep living.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

I was trying to put it "nicely" without a great deal of this and that being said..which is why I also said...
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> Ask questions and search around the site.. you will find lots of information in relation to such on the site..
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Sooo I guess I'll just lay it out here then since you have questioned what i meant [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

BRB's require a very rigid husbandry in order to keep them. They are nothing like your basic boa in regards to the temps and humidity factors which they need to survive..notice how you said...
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> as long as they keep living.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
They are unforgiving of mistakes made in their husbandry/care, unlike the basic boa/bci is. Some newbies to herping find it hard to even maintain a basic humidity level with a bci..never mind a Brb. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] In order to maintain my Brb's caging at the correct level of humidity which they needs and monitor their temps..I tend to that caging like 5 times a day to insure levels are correct. On my bci's I only have to check em daily and could get away with every other day if needed even. This snake is definately not one to buy on a spur of the moments thought to without definately getting some experience in with other basic type boas and thoroughly researching them prior to obtaining one.

On the retic...Get yourself experience in handling a boid that is not as temperamental or such a potential large size. These have astronomical growth rates and if your not experienced in keeping larger snakes at all that you have had for awhile and grown with, it could be a problem..NOT only to you but to the herp world as we all know it.

Neither of the 2 snakes you have mentioned getting are a good choice for a newbie to snake keeping at all. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] There are many other snakes that you can keep and gain in your experiences in keeping etc than these.
[addsig]

Dragon · #13 (**permalink**) 04-15-2002, 10:49 PM

If you are seriously considering a Sulewaysi (sp) I would go to Reticulated.Co.UK and read up a bit on them. The guy who runs the site has TONS of experience with retic's, and he informs that the Sulewaysi (sp) is one of the largest and can exceed 30 feet in length.
[addsig]

Boaguy · #14 (**permalink**) 04-15-2002, 11:36 PM

CEDAR is TOXIC to snakes.. thats probbly what killed him. or it could be IBD and the cedar together but cedar CAN and WILL kill snakes
anyway.
BRB's are hard to keep for one there humidity requirements.
they require 75%-90% humidity WITHOUT it dropping!
if it drops it can be potentialy fatal.
and they arent very good with husbandry mistakes.. one mistake can kill them.

Retics.. are the LONGEST growing snake on the planet and the species u named is one of the biggest of the BIGGEST! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] they would need a room sized enclosure..
a 20 foot retic would need HUGE cage and if it got bigger [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] 30 foot.. imagine thats one HUGE cage it would need about a 15 foot x 15 foot cage MINIMUN thats the size of a master bedroom.

anyway just so you know what we mean about they arent good bigginer snakes [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[addsig]

#15 (**permalink**) 04-15-2002, 11:50 PM

Oh Yeah..Here's a link to more info on IBD
[addsig]

JuliusSqueezer · #16 (**permalink**) 04-16-2002, 05:18 AM

I don't think cedar or IBD was to blame here....although IBD is still a possibility.
I think Marty assumes the substrate was cedar because it was red. But...It sounds more like reptibark because I have never seen cedar bark sold for anything, anywhere. cedar shavings, yes....cedar bark no. Also, it would be really unusual for a baby boa to die that quickly from IBD...not unheard of....but unusual none the less.

There are several things that could have happened. If the snake was fed in the cage, he could have swallowed some bark and got impacted or even a punctured intestine or esophogus. He could have had an internal parasite infestation or could have been severely overheated at some point and become dehydrated. He could have been stressed into regurg syndrome or just for some reason didn't bask after eating and regurged because the food didnt digest properly...Whatever the cause of the regurgitation, he surely became severely dehydrated as a result and that would cause the seizing episodes and ultimatly his death.

Pay close attention to keeping proper temperature gradients and humidity. People seem to like to round it off to id 80s on the cool and 90 on the warm but I have seen very few boas that would ever sit in a 90 degree basking spot where there is a cooler place to choose. I keep my boas in the mid to high 80s (86-8

on the warm side and high 70s on the cool side and they still spend most of their time on the cooler sides of the cages.

As to the other snakes mentioned on your wish list... I think Lori already preached the same thing everyone else here will tell you that has kept or is keeping these species. Before ever even thinking about bringing home a cute little baby retic or burmese python...or God forbid an anaconda....go to the zoo and look long and hard at a 25 foot-250+ lb snake and tell yourself you want to have to deal with it in your house. They are extremely messy, it takes several people to handle them and even with several people, it is still a train wreck. They feed on things like med sized pigs, goats, still born calves...and still look at you like you are made of rat pot pie. Brazilian Rainbow boas are great animals and don't get so big that you need the whole WCW to come help you feed them but they have very strict requirments. For example, if a baby BRB is ever kept above 85 degrees for any amt of time...he WILL die. Humidity has to be kept so high that the glass stays fogged up inside the cage (70-90%)...I usually raise mine up to about 90-100 and let it drop to 70 before hosing them down again. Most people get baby rainbows and feed them pinkie mice. They will not survive on this diet...a newborn BRB will take a hopper mouse or a pink rat as his first meal. Feeding them multiple smaller mice will make them regurge so best to stay with something a bit larger and just one per feeding. Anyway...there are a gazillion other choices out there that require much less time and effort to keep up. Whatever you decide you want....do your research. Talk to people that are keeping them and set up the habitat way in advance to make sure you can keep any husbandry issues in check before bringing the snake home. If you MUST have a retic or BRB right now...there are many people here to help you and will always be aroud to answer questions for ya...but please...think about a ball python or a cornsnake or even another boa first. I'm not saying these snakes are disposable ...but...herping is addictive and you will want to add to your collection as time goes on. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Welcome to RTB.
[addsig]

Advertisement