Borneo bat eater

[Ben_Renick]

I understand your point Razer.

I do breed large snakes, but I'm picky as heck on who I will sell large snakes to, and I'm available 24/7 to anyone that needs help. The fact is that normal animals cost very little and anyone can afford them, and people don't think about the extra cost of it, that's just how it goes. If people spent more time educating themselves before buying, things would be different. Although I looked through that site, and most of the snakes there were balls, not big snakes.

This is all part of the pet industry though, it goes the same way with dogs, cats, etc. People will always select animals over other animals, everyone is guilty of doing it, and in most cases, they will take the more attractive animal. If there were only unattractive animals available, maybe no one would buy them in the first place, leading to the same outcome.

Also, if every animal was based at the same price, I guarentee you those websites would be beyond full of animals, increasing the numbers 10 fold...

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[DannyBoy]

"It is not so much how we affect evolution and natural selection but the morals in which we do it." Morals are a set of principles regarding right and wrong according to the Webster dictionary. Now how do we determine who is right and who is wrong in accordance to deciding what to do with the selective breeding of snakes? Is your view or opinions the right way? Are the views and the opinions of the breeders of these morphs the right way? Even if a small group of people come to a consensus regarding this issue, it doesn't matter. Because the ecosystem, including humans and the simple laws of economics, determine the answer. It isn't just outlandish breeders raising prices to turn a buck. It is millions of decisions by consumers to purchase the morphs are the requested prices. If people as a whole did not want to pay the asking price for these animals then the sellers would be forced to lower the price, or stop breeding them. We as a people have spoken. We want morphs. (Again, I am not saying we as in me. We is a reference to the human population as they make economic decisions to support or not to support selective breeding.)

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[razeraze]

Morality will come after a revelation in zietgiest (spirit of the times) Much like it took a long time to give animals' rights and end puppy mills.

Now for a personal experience. When Rachel and I had our water monitor pass away we wanted another one. They are in our opinion the biggest and most beautiful monitors in the world. We were ready to pay a good deal for a CB one until I saw an add on here for a black throat. We did not want a black throat but the guy lived minutes from us and was moving. He wanted $250 but he would negotiate given a chance to see where the animal was going to live (unlike many keepers). When he saw the cage he offered to give him to us, We gave him $50 for bringing the lizard to our home.

Though we did not want a black throat when we put him in the cage and he started digging we new we could not take that away from him. To this day I wish I had a water monitor but I will never get rid of our black throat. To me it is about helping reptiles any way I can, not about colors. Yes I do love large reptiles as a preference but when Rachel found a tree frog almost frozen to death at her work guess what happened? Yep we had a tree frog addition.

[mrcota]

Kaa,
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I was not posting about the genetics of those that actually have a gene that causes striping, I was posting in reference to your quote:

Originally Posted by Kaa_BCC

You cant get a pattern change or anything of that nature from low incubation temps. all you would get is deformities.

This is what my post was about. You stated that you can not get pattern change from sub-optimal gestation or incubation temperatures. My post was that such changes, specifically striping in snakes as a result of sub-optimal incubation temperatures is well documented.

Originally Posted by Kaa_BCC

Simple. Breeders are not using things like stem cell research to play with the genetics of animals to bring out certain colors or patterns. We are doing selective breeding. Not playing god so to speak. We don't create the genetics they are already there. The morphs we produce in captivity (again excluding anything in the hybrid area) Could , although not likely, occur in the wild.

The last part is what I was referring to. Although it 'could' occur in the wild- it is not 'natural' or 'naturally occuring' (it is abnormal and not natural).
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General forum post- This all started getting off topic from the original thread when the 'tiger retic' was brought up. I was not aware that a mutant was brought into the US that way, so I commented that it appeared to me to be the victim of sub-optimal incubation temperatures (not that is was, appeared to me that way), and indeed if you see an example of of this kind of abnormality- that is exactly what it looks like. Although I personally don't like the idea of abnormal morphs, I do not despise it like the hybrids.
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Here is an example of how hybrids can cause a LARGE problem. Back when the crocodile leather industry was booming, someone had the bright idea of crossing Crocodylus siamensis, a small rather docile crocodile, with Crocodylus porosus. The resultant hybrid produced a superior leather than either of the 'parent species'. The problem: Almost all the Crocodylus siamensis were bred with Crocodylus porosus to the point that now pure Crocodylus siamensis almost do not exist in captive stocks and the Crocodylus siamensis in the wild is listed as Critically Endangered (the step before being Extinct in the Wild). There was a search world wide for pure Crocodylus siamensis and few were found. Captive breeding programmes for eventual re-release are still at very small levels.
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Don't try to fool yourselves that the snakes in captivity are 'evolving'. Captive breeding for the pet trade is barely three decades old on any kind of 'commercial' level. Speciation in reptiles within man's short time on earth has never been recorded. Even artificial speciation in reptiles is not going to be recognised by any systematist as anything other than a mutant or its less desirable synonym, freak of nature.
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Cheers,
Michael

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[morti]

I think what you will find is a difference in intent. The people who breed crocs for the skin trade really are in it to make a buck. In this case, specifically to produce a better quality leather.

One thing that is very different in breeding for hybrid snakes, such as the Borneo bat eater, is that these are not being produced for "consumption" as leather. They are produced for future breeding. They are here in the US, half a world away from their native ranges, and therefore they pose very little risk to wild populations. I have met many of the people who produce these hybrids, and they simply are not in it for the money. I think that more than anything, they want to explore 1) if it can be done and 2) if the resultant offspring are fertile. In the case of borneo bat eaters, the answer is yes to both questions.

And to use your point from your last paragraph, I agree with you completely. Captive reptiles are not "evolving". They are outside of the natural world. They are no longer eligible for evolution. While we do something similar to Natural Selection with them and call it Selective Breeding, it is more like Artificial Selection... we are breeding animals with a whole new set of survival characteristics: the ability to survive in captivity. Captivity can be an equally difficult place to survive as the wild.

You may not be aware of this, but it is very difficult to get any species of animal that is critically endangered into the US at all. Even then, once they are here, their trade is highly regulated. I would imagine that you will never see a hybrid produced from, say, Fiji iguanas because you simply can't get them.

I still fail to see what the damage is with captive breeding hybrid animals.

-Morti.

	Iguana Iguana

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[mrcota]

Originally Posted by morti

I think what you will find is a difference in intent. The people who breed crocs for the skin trade really are in it to make a buck. In this case, specifically to produce a better quality leather.

Yes, that is correct. Something interesting here is that the owner of the largest crocodile farm (I think it may be the world's largest, if not, close to it) is one of the largest proponents of crocodile conservation and is the only one in the world with a successful breeding programme for Tomistoma schlegelii, which is also Critically Endangered and considered Extinct in the Wild in Thailand.

Originally Posted by morti

I still fail to see what the damage is with captive breeding hybrid animals.

It is a question of ethics. It is just wrong to do it in the first place and it is wrong to make the victims of the failed experiments suffer (the ones that die from their genetical make up being so mixed up). Something really wrong with the pet trade, herpetoculture in particular, is that it is not at all regulated and anybody is able to do anything they want, no matter how wrong it is, with no oversight. I am not saying it needs some kind of government oversight, but if this problem is not taken care of internally and there are some serious problems in herpetoculture, the government will eventually step in and regulate, like some of the laws that have already been passed in relation to reptiles, made by the uniformed, because there is no oganisation to enlighten them.
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If scientists were doing this hydriding of different species with monkeys or apes (I could not see it happening, because it would serve no scientific purpose), there would be organised protests along with television coverage.
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Cheers,
Michael

[razeraze]

Well said Michael. Like with dogs, and cats the diseases and mutations from selective breeding are becoming more recognized and despised. Humans take a long time to really care how they affect other living things and once the general public is aware of these mutations being inbreed or selectively breed to make more mutations animal activists will want to ban all reptiles. Not to mention should they really grasp how many need homes that are not being adopted because they don't have the same appeal as the mutants.

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[Ben_Renick]

[quote] is a question of ethics. It is just wrong to do it in the first place and it is wrong to make the victims of the failed experiments suffer (the ones that die from their genetical make up being so mixed up). [\quote]

Okay, well the only thing I can say here is, this is an opinion. While the fertility rate of the animals might be smaller, I have yet to see a case where the animals developed any differently (other than looks) than that of normal animal clutches.

[quote] but if this problem is not taken care of internally and there are some serious problems in herpetoculture, the government will eventually step in and regulate{/quote]

Hybriding in boas and pythons has shown absolutly no problem so far? If the fertility rates are low, and they aren't being mass produced by any means, why would the government step in to regulate? And I don't see why they would in the first place if none of the speices are flourishing? The laws concerning Herpeculture are mainly native, venomous, and large constrictors. I don't see why they would care what-so-ever about what people breed (unless it's illegal where they live).

If this hobby is regulated to that point, why even keep the freedom to keep animals?

But I'm almost done replying to the thread, just because I'm lacking contributions here, but if anyone wants to talk about it, just shoot me a pm, I'm all about discussions, as long as it's kept cool and people note that an opinion is an opinion.

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[Rex322]

think of it as playing god. these hybrids would not exist in the wild. they would not exist at all if we didnt create them. if we can hybrid everything and thats not a big deal, than why is it that the issue of cloning is such a big deal? both issues are dealing with playing god.

its kind of how humans think their so far superior than every other animal. a dog bites a kid, the dog gets put down. now if a kid hits another kid, does someone come with some special leash on a stick, slap it around his neck, throw him in a cage and put him down? the most ignorant thing a person can do is think that thier not part of the food chain in any way. just because we are more advanced, and other animals cant do the things we can do, does not make us better than them in any way. eventually, our own ignorance and feeling of superiority will be the downfall of our kind.

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[razeraze]

If I believed in god I would totally agree with you

Where does it end? Humans are probably closer to chimpanzees than retics are to burms yet I don't see anyone pushing to sell chimpumans Not to mention we won't know our mistakes until we have selectively bred snakes for hundreds of years, much like dogs. Some humans still think rattlesnake round ups are cool, do you think they care about "designing" these vermin?

I believe we should love reptiles for what they are, not for what we want to make them.

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[SnakeCollector]

Man this went farther than i thought it would, anyways that burm ball looks pretty cool and no i am not saying i am for them i just think it looks cool and is there any other recently invented hybrids out there?

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[mrcota]

Originally Posted by Ben_Renick

Okay, well the only thing I can say here is, this is an opinion. While the fertility rate of the animals might be smaller, I have yet to see a case where the animals developed any differently (other than looks) than that of normal animal clutches.

Originally Posted by mrcota

As far as the 'boaconda', it has been done in the 1980's in California and ended up a real genetical mess- the ones that were born alive did not live long. Afterwards, I would not have anything to do with the one that did this.

It is not just a question of fetility rate, it is a question of genetical mutants suffering, as I referred to in the above mentioned post. How anyone that engages in such practices saying that they even care for animals is purely delusional, except caring for them suffering.
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Genetics have been gone over and over again, but what no one cares to look into is the physiological problems that these genetic mutants are forced to live with. Anyone with the most rudimentary knowledge of biology knows that internal organs, such as lungs among many others, are different in shape and function from species to species and when you start messing with such diverse clades of species, that actually belong in different genera, you are talking about a great number of potential problems concerning organ function and cooperation. What bizarre purpose could such creations of hybrids truly serve besides some sick fascination, like those that used to attend circus side shows used to have?
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As far as future any possible regulation goes, that will not concern me, but as time goes on, more and more places are regulating what you can and can not have without any informed input- that is all on you over there. Actually, the more restrictive it becomes over there, the less pressure there will be in the future on wild populations
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Cheers,
Michael

[razeraze]

Michael do you have any direct results on health problems for the morphs or hybrids. I know there is extensive results with dog problems as result of selective breeding as well as livestock but that is because of the generations of doing it.

It seems selectively breeding reptiles is still fairly new so direct health related issues have not yet been addressed.

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[mrcota]

Originally Posted by razeraze

Michael do you have any direct results on health problems for the morphs or hybrids. I know there is extensive results with dog problems as result of selective breeding as well as livestock but that is because of the generations of doing it.
It seems selectively breeding reptiles is still fairly new so direct health related issues have not yet been addressed.

I don't have any 'direct' results on health problems for morphs or hybrids, because I do not and will never breed them nor do I associate with others that breed hybrids (I just do not want to be associated with people like that- people with selfish motivations that practice what they do without taking the implications into consideration- or even worse- just don't care). I have received more information that I wanted on it in the past- enough to learn of horrible results.
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There is no scientific interest in such studies, since they are of absolutely no value unless it is something that could naturally occur, such as species that live in sympatry on the edges of their ranges and have just crossed over speciation criteria (my earlier crocodile example fits into that). Although this would be of interest to the herpetoculture community, the two do not meet together here and I do not expect them to ever do so. There are some in the 'breeding trade' with the requisite expertise to do this study, but then again, why would they harm the very thing that makes them money? Obviously, from the posts there are many on this forum that do not know about this going horribly wrong in the past nor do I suspect they care- they are just interested in making a 'kewl' looking snake, regardless of the ill effects or mortality it has. The most one can do is simply keep tabs on it and you are sure to hear about their failures to create their latest batch of mutants- if that is your thing. Concerning morphs (this post is directed to hybrids), there are more and more examples of problems related with them due to them being interbred constantly into each other as everyone is racing to produce the fast money (while it is still in vogue) and there is more than enough information available on that.
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You are right about this all being new. Breeding of reptiles on a commercial scale for the pet trade is barely three decades old (in the time I have been keeping reptiles) compared to centuries/millennia of selective breeding with domesticated animals (newsflash: reptiles are not domesticated animals!). Some have tried to compare this to dog breeding, which is not even close: same subspecies (dogs) against snakes so distantly related that they rightfully belong in different genera (this case).
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From what I have seen here (most everyone appears to be well meaning), I am sure there are more than enough people out there, that will try to fulfull their sick fascination messing up the genetical and physiological make up of hybrid reptiles for their own selfish gratification. I did not even get started on the the damage that attempted hybriding can do to the reproductive organs, where the Paryphasmen of the male in different species can destroy the female's ability for further reproduction along with causing prolapse/other injuries.
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Michael

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[razeraze]

Thank you Michael. I believe there are some comparisons with the domesticated animals that have been designed. Look at all the nasal problems with bulldogs, eye problems with chiuaua and spine problems with daschunds. I don't even want to start with livestock health problems.

Thanks again for your answers.

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[morti]

Originally Posted by mrcota

Something interesting here is that the owner of the largest crocodile farm (I think it may be the world's largest, if not, close to it) is one of the largest proponents of crocodile conservation and is the only one in the world with a successful breeding programme for Tomistoma schlegelii, which is also Critically Endangered and considered Extinct in the Wild in Thailand.

Not to go too far off topic, but one of the largest producers of Ball Python Morphs here in the US is also one of the very few people doing actual field work towards conservation of a rare range of Crotalus horridus in the north-east US.

You will never convince me that the people who breed morphs and hybrids are bad people or that they are doing it for the "Wrong Reasons". Much like you have an inside knowledge of the crocodile skin trade, I have a bit of inside knowledge of the pet trade here in the US... I know many of these people personally, and like any other cross section of society, there are some that I respect and some that I do not.

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[mrcota]

Yes, Morti,
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There are some decent people in the pet trade- I know a few of them in the US myself. There are also responsible breeders of morphs (I don't like it, but do not have large issues with it) that take care to try to avoid the inbreeding problems; however, with all the problems that are known that are possible with hybriding, particularly the one that is the subject of this this thread, I can not see it as anything but a wrong reason- Someone who would do something like that is 'bad' by definition- they define bad when it comes to hybriding: 1) Not appropriate to a particular purpose and (2) causing pain, danger, or other unwelcome consequences. Could you explain the 'good' nature of hybriding such distantly related species?
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Cheers,
Michael

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).