Borneo bat eater

[pcncb]

"We now have many more amazing, one-of-a-kind multi morph Cateater Rock/Burmese Hybrids than ever before in history."
Quote taken from High End Herps

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[morti]

OK... Tiger retics are a real live, proven, co-dominant, genetic trait. Jungle retics are the result of breeding a borneo bat eater back to a retic. If you are going to get all irate, at least get irate at the right thing.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[pcncb]

No idea what it means but irate added some UMPTH to that post!

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[Kaa_BCC]

I would like to thank Ben for beating me to the punch. But I do have a few other things to say. All morphs (not hybrids) are naturally occuring. You cant get a pattern change or anything of that nature from low incubation temps. all you would get is deformities. Even designer morphs Could be naturally occuring. The only thing that really prevents it is the survival rate in the wild. LOW LOW LOW!!! And the odds of an adult albino being close enough to an adult hypo of different sexes blah blah blah well you get my point. All breeders really do is select what they want to breed together to get something different. As far as the $$$ part goes. Well the worth of snakes is as simple as supply and demand for them. Maybe the bredder has only produced 1 of whatever in the last 5 years. So yeah he sho9uld be able to say if you want it you're going to have to pay my price. If not then he has the option of proving out whatever trait blah blah blah. It comes down to simple economics in that category.

	Hypomelanistic Hypomelanistic - a genetic reduction in the dark pigment Melanin.

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[mrcota]

Tom,
.
Please read my post again,
.

Originally Posted by mrcota

Those 'striped' variants that you often see are not usually any kind of genetical variation; they are usually produced by keeping the incubation temperature artificially low to the point of being nearly fatal (their idea: who cares how many die? We will get more money for them).

This is how they are usually produced, but this was shown to be a genetic trait for the 'tiger retic'- might be as 'natural' as albino.

Originally Posted by mrcota

From appearances, that is what the 'tiger retics' look like to me.

That is what they appear like to me, but from what others have written, not what they are.
.
As far as Bob Clark, I wish that he would use his knowledge of reptiles differently and I really do not care for what he does, but he does care enough to have contacted me about trying to get some more 'yellow-headed reticulated pythons' to keep from inbreeding too much. Laws here prohibit the export of any protected fauna (all pythons included). Even export of non-protected species is problematic.
.
Just because an animal did not appear to be what it was advertised as is no reason to feel bad about having it. I have a genetical freak of my own, an albino Pantherophis guttatus, which was given to me (and will die a Darwinian death).
.
Cheers,
Michael

[razeraze]

Well I feel better knowing it is something natural like axanthic or albinism. Just because they will not survive in the wild does not mean they should not be kept in captivity, in my book. How ever I will never breed a reptile for the purpose of the pet trade There are enough breeders for that and far too many reptiles in rescues.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[Chubbz]

Originally Posted by LukaTisus

I actually heard rumor that they already had, and somehow succeeded apparently, though it might've just been a wierd-looking morph there was a thread on here, or somewhere else, that had a picture of a Ballburm.. it's sad, really... what some people do to exploit these animals for profit and personal gain. That of which is what it usually is..

i think i heard someone call this hybrid a BurP

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[project_evolution]

as far as bob goes, he has always been helpful and curteous when ive spoken to him in person. i bought my piebald hets from him and they arrived healthy microchipped and w/ a feeding chart. i wouldnt hesitate to do business with him. his forums had some real douches working as mods though when last i was there.

	Heterozygous Heterozygous - the animal carries the gene for a genetic trait but does not outwardly demonstrate the trait. Example: A boa that is het for albino looks normal but carries the albino gene. When it is bred to another het for albino boa or an albino boa, a percentage of the offspring will be albino.

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by project_evolution

as far as bob goes, he has always been helpful and curteous when ive spoken to him in person. i bought my piebald hets from him and they arrived healthy microchipped and w/ a feeding chart. i wouldnt hesitate to do business with him. his forums had some real douches working as mods though when last i was there.

ok, I don't even know if that warrants a warning. lol But please refrain from bashing other forums.

	Heterozygous Heterozygous - the animal carries the gene for a genetic trait but does not outwardly demonstrate the trait. Example: A boa that is het for albino looks normal but carries the albino gene. When it is bred to another het for albino boa or an albino boa, a percentage of the offspring will be albino.

[Rex322]

whats wrong with hybrids? well lets see, alot of the...ok more than likly the only reason we have hybrid snakes is because some moron thinks hes gonna get rich quick. more than likly thats what it is, a lazy sob who doesnt want to work for the money, just make it fast. (im not trying to bash any breeders, who breed morphs and other things that arent hybrid, just simply stating, thats more than likly why we have hybrids)

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[brownsfan222]

i personally wouldn't own a hybrid so in that sense i dont like them, but i do think its cool to see what two snakes look when crossed since people always ask what would happen if you cross certain snakes. if more people were breeding them for the interest and curiosity aspect and did it responsibly i wouldn't mind owning one.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[BWSmith]

Any time Hybrids comes up, I am reminded of Jurassic Park.

"Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should" -Ian Malcolm

[FavorBoas]

I've been on here two whole threads...and I'm considering deleting my account after this. This is pathetically irreverent and smacks of purism

[Rex322]

Originally Posted by FavorBoas

jeezus...I've been on here two whole threads...and I'm considering deleting my account after this. This is pathetically irreverent and smacks of purism

its called difference of opinion. we are all allowed to voice our opinion. this site is completely voluntary, so if you cant take the opinions from other people, that you may not agree with, dont stay

[mrcota]

Sorry, I missed your earlier post:

Originally Posted by Kaa_BCC

All morphs (not hybrids) are naturally occuring.

??? When you take abnormalities from different localities that would never come in contact with each other- how would that 'naturally occur'?

Originally Posted by Kaa_BCC

You cant get a pattern change or anything of that nature from low incubation temps. all you would get is deformities.

I would refer to you Ross & Marzec 1990. The Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons and Boas. Institute for Herpetological Research. They show it with both pythons and boas. When you get right down to it, it is a deformity of sorts- you are deforming the pattern of chromatophores during development (along with who knows what else internally with the organs). This is well documented and attributed to suboptimal temperatures during development.
.
Michael

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[mrcota]

Just found another reference in my library concerning pattern aberrations due to enviromental factors, i.e. temperature:

Frye, F.L. 1991. Developmental Anomalies.

Although Frye only speaks about abnormalities in pattern, specifically in snakes, Ross & Marzec specifically mention and illustrate striping.

Michael

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[morti]

Michael, while the references you cite are both quite valid, there are also instances of proven genetic morphs that result in aberrant patterns that are not the result of incubation temperatures. In the early 90's when those works were written, science used to regularly blame every pattern change on incubation temperature. Those days are behind us. When many pattern varations (like tiger reticulated pythons) were proven to occur with provable genetic frequency, it made many people re-think what was happening.

I will neither discuss what we all seem to thing is ethically wrong or right about this situation, but the fact is that not everything is the result of some "lowlife" out to make a buck. Some times there is actual science involved.

-Morti.

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[kim k]

This is a pic of a female burm that I'm picking up today. I was told that her abberant pattern is due to temps being messed with durring incubation.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y24...s/100_1256.jpg

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[Ben_Renick]

Originally Posted by Rex322

whats wrong with hybrids? well lets see, alot of the...ok more than likly the only reason we have hybrid snakes is because some moron thinks hes gonna get rich quick. more than likly thats what it is, a lazy sob who doesnt want to work for the money, just make it fast. (im not trying to bash any breeders, who breed morphs and other things that arent hybrid, just simply stating, thats more than likly why we have hybrids)

While I can see your point with this one, a lot of people don't make hybrids to get rich quick, just to see the outcome. Granted, I know of a couple cases Hybrids were accidently produced and they tried to bank in. There isn't really a HUGE market for hybrid snakes. I mean just looking at this thread, obviously there are a lot of people that wouldn't buy them, let alone spend thousands of dollars on them. Just saying there are people out there that do breed to see outcomes, and their high price tag comes with rareity and work to do it.

Morti has hit basically what I would say to the incubation and pattern situation. While Inc temps can play a part in it, it's not just extemely low temps, any sort of flux at the right stage of development might make a difference, not like it wouldn't happen naturally either.

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[Kaa_BCC]

Originally Posted by mrcota

Sorry, I missed your earlier post:
??? When you take abnormalities from different localities that would never come in contact with each other- how would that 'naturally occur'?

Simple. Breeders are not using things like stem cell research to play with the genetics of animals to bring out certain colors or patterns. We are doing selective breeding. Not playing god so to speak. We don't create the genetics they are already there. The morphs we produce in captivity (again excluding anything in the hybrid area) Could , although not likely, occur in the wild.

Originally Posted by mrcota

I would refer to you Ross & Marzec 1990. The Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons and Boas. Institute for Herpetological Research. They show it with both pythons and boas. When you get right down to it, it is a deformity of sorts- you are deforming the pattern of chromatophores during development (along with who knows what else internally with the organs). This is well documented and attributed to suboptimal temperatures during development.?

Sure a color or pattern change may develop but it is not going to be genetic. It would be from lack of full development of the individual and would not be able to be passed on to it's offspring.
In the case of Tiger retics. The gene involved is codominant, making it the heterozygous form of the gene. If a tiger male were bred to a normal female then a percentage of the babies would display the tiger gene and the siblings would all be normal. If a tiger x tiger the a percentage would be the homozygus form or super tiger and the rest would be the het form (tigers). Now you take the Homozygus form (supertiger) and breed it to a normal and whoala your entire clutch is the het form (tigers). All incubated normally. This process is really no different than any other gene. With a recessive gene the difference is that the het forms look just like the wild type and only the homozygus forms will display the trait. That to me says that no it is not a result of low incubation temps. And yes whether it is seen in the wild or not that is where it came from. It is a naturally occuring mutant gene.
Even California Kings show great variations in patterns depending on where they are found. you catch one in the mountains it has much broader white bands. You catch one in the desert they become so slim that they are almost nonexistent. Who is to say that this random gentetic morph of Python Reticulatus is not just a adaptation to its environment. It looks to me as if it would provide good cover in it's natural home. Maybe even enough that that is what is making it so hard for you to find LOL. Maybe This morph is just not occuring near you yet.
Yellow-headed retics look different than normal ones. Yet no one complains about them. Yet at some point those pythons developed differently than their normal counterparts. It's evolution. Even evolution sometimes makes mistakes(albinos???). That is why they are weeded out so quickly in the wild.
Cheers,
Kaa

	Heterozygous Heterozygous - the animal carries the gene for a genetic trait but does not outwardly demonstrate the trait. Example: A boa that is het for albino looks normal but carries the albino gene. When it is bred to another het for albino boa or an albino boa, a percentage of the offspring will be albino.

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).