Live vs frozen

[Squeezer]

Recently I joined a Boaconstrictor Yahoo Group. The other day one of the guys posted some pics of his snakes on feeding day. It was obvious that he feeds live so I posted a link to the "so you still think it's ok to feed live thread" and metioned some of the benefits of feeding frozen. It turns out several people feed live in this group. We had a little frozen vs live debate there and in the end they're still going to feed live and I'm still feeding frozen. I asked why feed live and this is one of the replies I got:

Hi Eric, Freezing does kill some parasites, but not all of them. To anyone who knows little of Parasites, they are small microscopic creatures that need to live inside a host to survive. They are called Trichinella spiralis or more commonly known as trichinosis. This worm lives in mammals, us being one of them. Also found in Beef, Pork, Raw or Marinated Fish, Wild Game, and Rats.
Now, you say you use the F/T rodents. How do you thaw them out ?? In Hot, Warm, or Cold water ?? Or are they just laying on the kitchen counter, on a paper plate ?? How long are they thawing out and at what temperature would that be ?? If your snakes are not hungry, what do you do with the rodent ?? Put it in the frig till next time ?? Maybe refreeze it ?? Or do you throw it out ?? The reasons of these questions are that Bacteria survives and grows between the temperatures of 40 to 140 degrees and reproduces very rapidly from 60 to 120 degrees. The discharges of the waste and decomposed materials are toxins, which are poisonous to humans and will make you very ill. A another factor to consider, is moisture. Bacteria thrives on this. My intentions are not to put fear in anyone, whether you feed fresh or frozen. This is a choose that each and everyone of us must make. There are pros and cons to both methods. You need to decide what is best for you and your pet. Live is the way I go. My vet that cares for my two Boas, and has 20 various snakes of his own, agrees with the feeding live pray. Eric chooses to feed F/T, that is also his choice. I do not condemn him for that. This is how he does it, and I am fine with that. This is his choice. I hope this long, winded note finds everyone well. Later...... Rep

I've never had any problems feeding frozen but then again I've only been doing this for 9 months now. I'm posting this up to see what you all have to say about this. Thisis another reply I got later from the same guy:
No....... I do not mind at all if you post our last conversation, of the debate we all had. I have forward, one of my replies to you, on the groups e-mail which does touch base on some of subjects, that you are requesting for. Lets see......... Oh... here's another point that we did not talk about. The joy of the hunt. Not just for the snake, but for my self. What an Adrenalin rush I get just before the strike. I also think I can speak for most people that do feed live. The strike hits with such force, and accuracy, it's mind boggling. They are like a well...... oiled..... Killing Machine !! With computer, generated precision. Have you ever been to the Zoo during feeding time ?? Have you ever seen how board to death the Lions, and Tigers, and Bears ( Oh My !! Sorry, I couldn't't help myself )are when given a bowl of food. Think what physiological effects this has not only being caged up, but their natural instincts, to hunt, or lack of, to take down its pray, and feast. We all try to make the serpent environment as close to it's normal habitat, as possible. We take them out and let them stroll. Think of the impact this has on them. No hunting necessary. Here buddy, Have another semi frozen Popsicle. Um-mm, Um-mm. Can I have another one please ?? We all would never want any harm come to our pets. So we do what we feel is right. I feel feeding live rodents is right, this is what they do in the wild, and this is what I do with mine. This is one thing I will never take away from them. Thank You And Good Night...... Rep
That was one of the responses I was waiting for but hoped I wouldn't get. Anyways, let's here what you all have to say. I'm going to post a link to this thread so the Yahoo people can check this out. I've invited them to join in. If they do, try not to rip them a new one.
-Eric

[SnakeMann87]

I dont feed live. I have, but just to get my Ball Python to eat.

I havent heard of parasites living after being frozen in a rodent. But I'm positive theres a less chance of the parasites in frozen then in live.

No offense to you, but Yahoo groups suck. I mean big time.

I read a post where a guy bought a snake and his daughter doesnt like mice or rats. So he said "what should I do?", "I've tried lizards, crickets, chicken, and he wont take anything?"

[hottie]

wel i think what he was saying was good but then again it is a little stupid because those worms only live in a few mamals because only 1 in 1 million infect mammals.and i feel it is wrong to give your snake live because he/she could get hurt so i will not do it.
and the fact that he mentiond the lions and bears is something else i would not bother giving them live because the pray could not hurt them but they would not go out and find or mate animals to give them live because that wil not be enough.this is what i think of live feeding.i don't have something against live feeding but i can't see the snakes get hurt of bit,because i saw some of the pics of snakes that got live feeding and it is not a nice pictur so plzz people don't feed live.

[SnakeMann87]

Its just not neccesary. I mean any reptile owner who actually cares about their reptiles will feed frozen. I mean if you feed live cause you like it....get rid of the snake. Its just not worth it

[morti]

The person named a single parasite... trichina worms (the cause of a disease called trichinosis). They don't seem to understand that rats are far more likely to carry round worms, hook worms, and a wide variety of flagylates that are all dangerous to reptiles and all are killed by the freezing process. The concept that thawing a rat is going to cause more bacteria to form than what is already existant in a live rat is also a mark of this person's intelegence. While it is true that bacteria forms while thawing, the bacteria that the rodent carys around with it as normal flora is far more plentiful and far more deadly. Guess what: Bacteria are also killed by the freezing process.

It is this simple: He is wrong... and his vet is wrong.

[Boa_Breeder]

i agree with sick uncle... but ya know this is one of the most popular discusions it seems.. i know ive seen several threads on it here back in the day.. Some ppl are just so hard headed and think the know all that the only way to wake them up is for one of their snakes to get hurt, and then thats still not gonna change some ppl's minds, But i also didnt see in his answer if he just threw it in the cage or acually watched it.. but there again watching it doesnt insure safety for the snake "blink of an eye".. just to bad for the snake when there is much safer methods of feeding... again just my opinion but F/T is the way to go

[morti]

Having gone back and re-read the part in italics, it sounds like this is another person who thinks its fun to watch the death of a rat. I have NO respect for those people. The only truly sad part of this is he is corrupting impressionable people with his irresponsible advice. If he kills his snakes, it will be a bad thing. If he instructs other people on the best way to kill their snakes, it will be even worse.

[Squeezer]

Those that feed live say they do supervise the feedings.

[eddie]

Supervise???

I guess I need to say another reason I whack Mickey Mouse...
I can supervise a rodent, holding in my hand the entire time.
Guess what?
It still bites the crap outta ya even if you are holding its' tail and are ready to pull it away in a split second.
now take that split second and mutiply it by whole seconds.
No matter how quick you are, you aren't going to get the food away from the snake if it decides to bite.
And if you try, you may just get wrapped up in the effort

All other things can happen as well.. but for the yahoo group.. take the smart ones and tell them about us here at Redtail.

Leave the others there or send them to an AOL group.

[savannah_babe]

i really dont think supervising the feeding matters much. it only takes a split second for him to latch onto your snake. by then, are you willing to take the chance to get bit by the rodent and snake because your too facinated with watching your snake take down a live prey item? and now you have to somehow seperate them. not to mention the stress this would add to your snake, and yourself. even if you dont want or like to feed f/t, there is always the "whacking" method. Even so, sitting there watching your snake feed adds stress. if i was a snake, and someone was watching me, i wouldnt eat. just because i wouldnt have protection..my mouth would be full. if you are desperate to get a snake to eat, thats one thing. but doing it as a routine, thats another.

[Amiechan]

Some of those people who feed live must have never been bit by a rat... I've got scars on my hand from last year where one bit the crap out of me 3 times.. Was pulling out the water bottle and it happened in less than a second. I would never subject one of my snakes to that kind of risk. I just cant believe some peoples reasoning for feeding live.. I think i've about heard every excuse under the moon now...

[LdyDrgn]

I, too, have scars from a rat...and a pet at that!

hmmm.... Seeing as how it is a Yahoo group, I guess that makes them all Yahoos now, doesn't it? :P