Help! Sick Cuban Boa!

springs_butterfly · #1 (**permalink**) 11-10-2002, 04:57 AM

OK, I've had a female Cuban Boa for about 6 months. She's just now about a 16 months old. She was eating like a horse from the time we got her. About 6 weeks ago, she ate 3 mice and regurged one the next day. We figured it was over feeding or a bad mouse. The next week we offered her one mouse, she took it and was fine the next day, so we offered another mouse and she took it readily. The day after, she regurged both mice. Since then, she's regurged all but one mouse. Every time we offer prey, she takes it readily. She was eating frozen/thawed when we got her, and we kept her on them. When she started the regurging, we tried fresh killed and live to see if it made a difference. It hasn't.

She has a large water bowl, 3 climbing branches, 2 hides, an undertank heater and UV light. Her substrate is aspen shavings. Nothing has changed in her tank since we got her. No sign of respiratory infection, and her fecal was clean.

Thoughts, ideas, comments? What can it be, and what can I do for her?

Thanks for any help you have to offer.

Terese Mansell
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rar · #2 (**permalink**) 11-10-2002, 05:04 AM

for a start never offer live food as it can bite back and cause some serious damage. Secondly, if i were you id start feeding rats instead of mice, 3 mice a sitting is a bit much, might aswell offer just one food item instead of 3. As for the regurge....im not sure, but if i were you i wouldent feed her for about 1/2 weeks, and let her get some fluids back, then id try her on a thawed rat which should be just slightly smaller than her girth. If she takes it and doesnt regurge, try feeding her a rat the same size girth as she is.

P.S. Anyone who thinks im wrong, please comment, im still new at this [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
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rar · #3 (**permalink**) 11-10-2002, 05:05 AM

Oh btw, do you feed her in her viv, or in a seperate enclosure? If you feed her in the viv she might have swallowed some shavings, and it could be causing a blockage somewhere, causing her to regurge.
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springs_butterfly · #4 (**permalink**) 11-10-2002, 05:11 AM

Thanks for the suggestions, rar.

I guess I should have mentioned that we are only feeding one prey item at a time now, but still only a mouse, not a rat. I guess my thought is that if she's going to regurge, I don't want it to strain her body anymore than necessary, and the mouse is smaller than a rat.

She is still drinking and doesn't seem to be dehydrated, so we're lucky there. She is being fed in viv, but on a paper towel so that shavings aren't an issue. I suppose she could have swallowed some though. Maybe an X-ray is in order?

Terese Mansell

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rar · #5 (**permalink**) 11-10-2002, 05:14 AM

im sure someone more experienced will be along in no time
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rar · #6 (**permalink**) 11-10-2002, 05:27 AM

just got this info for you:

The main causes of regurgitation are stress or handling too soon after eating, improper environmental conditions, and undiagnosed illness. Wait two days after feeding your snake before handling it (moving it from one enclosure to another or to clean is fine as long as it isn't too stressful). Also, allow your snake to have a warmer spot to move to after eating to aid digestion. You'll probably notice that your snake naturally retreats to this area for a day or two of warm privacy after feeding. Temperatures that are too cold will also cause regurgitation of meals, and should be corrected to the proper range right away. Always make sure food is unspoiled and of appropriate size. If your snake regurgitates on more than one occasion, and both stress and improper conditions have been eliminated, then suspect an underlying illness. Regurgitation should not be taken lightly. While it may occur on only one occasion with no apparent reason, repeat occurrences could lead to psychological problems in which the snake avoids the type of food that it can't seem to keep down.
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JuliusSqueezer · #7 (**permalink**) 11-10-2002, 08:25 AM

Ok...for starters...You are overfeeding.

What has likely happened here is that the snake has entered into regurge syndrome due to overfeeding. It is difficult to overcome and it can and will kill your snake if you don't get a grip on things right now.

Everytime your snake pukes, a good deal of bodily fluid and gut flora is lost. So...the snake is likely to dehydrate....this will kill it. Also, by feeding again so soon after a puke, they regurge again because they are short on proper enzymes to digest.

Once a snake regurges....NEVER try to feed them again right away!!!

Work on rehydration by soaking in tepid water or if skin flaps are present and dehydration is obvious...soak in pedilyte. Sometimes they may need soaked for several hours...sometimes for a couple of days...Yes DAYS...It won't hurt them....they do it on their own sometimes. If you have questions on how to soak them...please ask.

Wait a couple of weeks and try and feed ONE prey item slightly smaller than normal...Wait another 10-14 days and try again.....if he holds down 3 meals go back to a NORMAL feeding schedule of either 7-10-14 days depending on the size of the boa. No boa needs fed less than 7 days between meals...especially one that has a tendancy to puke.

Internal parasites may be an issue too....they will certainly cause a snake to regurge. A vet visit with a fresh stool sample and a fresh baggied vomited rodent would be ideal.

How big is this snake? How big is the prey? How often were you feeding before? It sounds like you were feeding pretty frequent and too many mice/rats at a time. A snakes digestive system is designed to work slow. This insures survival in the wild during times when prey is scarce. You cannot push this. They need time between meals to replentish gut flora.
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springs_butterfly · #8 (**permalink**) 11-10-2002, 04:27 PM

Thanks for your reply, Julius.

We did have a fecal done last week, it was negative. She seems to be drinking, but isn't soaking, I'll try that. Since she started the regurging, we've only given one mouse at a time, 7 days after any previous regurge. 3 weeks ago, she kept one down. The following week, she regurged again.

I'll follow your suggestions and keep you posted. This is our first arboreal, and we've never had to approach this problem before. Thanks for your help!

Terese Mansell
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JuliusSqueezer · #9 (**permalink**) 11-10-2002, 05:49 PM

They aren't really all that arboreal...She is an Epicrates ssp (Epicrates angulifer) to be exact which is in the rainbow boa family. They do like to climb at night to hunt but seldom roost during the day to sleep. This will vary greatly among babies. Make sure her hot side of the cage is kept a bit cooler than what you would keep most boas at. Don't let it go above 85 degrees f. and she needs pretty high humidity. 80% or so min. While they will take prey a bit larger than their girth....they usually don't do well with multiple prey items...stick to one. You said you fed her one mouse one day....and another the next day...and she puked them both up. please...don't try that again. She is having a tough time holding meals down...spread em out. 2 weeks between meals of ONE appropriate sized rodent. If you are feeding frozen/thawed...make sure they are fully thawed and warm. Squeeze the head of the rodent gently and feel forr coolness...the brain is the last thing to thaw. If there is anything still frozen it will be regurged.
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springs_butterfly · #10 (**permalink**) 11-10-2002, 06:33 PM

Thanks, Julius.

Have her soaking now.

Her last regurge was on Friday. Do you suggest I wait 14 days to try to feed her again?

I appreciate all your info. I relied too much on what I was told when I bought it, and I know better than to do that [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif[/img] I haven't found much written about cubans specifically...if you have any links to care sheets or additional info, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks again. Sheesh, 10 years of keeping snakes, thought I'd be equipped to handle almost anything. Just goes to show you never really know enough.

Terese
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JuliusSqueezer · #11 (**permalink**) 11-10-2002, 06:41 PM

My only experience with them is a friend used to have a pair. He had problems too because he tried to keep them like redtails when they should be kept like rainbow boas. If he hasn't lost any weight and remains hydrated ....I would hold off for as long as I could stand it....maybe evey 3 weeks or so....definatly not before 2 weeks though.
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ls1grrrl · #12 (**permalink**) 11-10-2002, 07:02 PM

I don't have any experience with that particular ssp of epicrates so take this for what its worth...

You didn't state what temps you're keeping the snake at, but like Julius said, trying to keep them in the same temp gradient you would say a common redtail would lead to major problems. They require cooler temps than redtails.

I found one site that listed a temp gradient of 20-24C (68-75F). While this seems a little low to me, and I couldn't find anything to compare it to, I would definitely try dropping your temps a bit, say low 80s warm end, and mid70s cool end. Cuban Boa Care sheet

Since what you're describing is a classic (TERRIBLE, EVIL, HORRIBLE) regurg. cycle which is common in arboreals such as ETBs with improper husbandry, it definitely can't hurt to try dropping the temps.

I, too, would say wait at least 2-3 weeks for the animal's system to recuperate from the stress of repeated regurg. Then try feeding 1 smaller than normal item.

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Dr.Oviparous · #13 (**permalink**) 11-12-2002, 01:31 PM

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> mouse is smaller than a rat. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE> Unless your talking about pinkie mice, rats are not bigger. You can get a rat to equal the size of any mouse (past a pinkie). I would switch to rats after he gets back on his feet. Good luck to you! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] -Juggalo
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eddie · #14 (**permalink**) 11-12-2002, 02:31 PM

Another problem is feeding it one day then following up the next day with more food.
This can cause regurges also as the stomaches flora is already being taxed with previous feedings, regurges etc and can't normally handle feedings like this even in perfect condition....
And with 3 food items at the time it can cause minute tears in the stomach wall and further increase damage with regurges.
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springs_butterfly · #15 (**permalink**) 11-18-2002, 06:53 PM

Just kind of an update...

I've been soaking her for several hours a day. She's definitely not liking it.

Yesterday she had voided in her tank, it was a pretty vivid green color, not something I'd ever seen before.

More questions:

1) Should I add pedialyte or gatorade to the water?

2) I'm holding off 2.5 weeks after her last regurge to try to feed her again, but want to be certain I give her the best chance possible to keep her food down. I ran across some information on another website about a regurging baby ball python, and there was a suggestion to add 5-10 mg. Metranidazole to the prey item, as it will help stimulate the appetite and help keep the food down. Now, she's never hesitated when it comes to *taking* food, it's just keeping it down. Do you think the Metranidazole would help? If she's regurging within 12 hours, would it have time to help?

Any more opinions?

Terese

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telefrag · #16 (**permalink**) 11-18-2002, 07:03 PM

Well,
Metranidazole is a anti-protazoan/parasitic treatment, also called flagyl.
I would not use this unless it is diagnosed by a vet as being necessary.

I would truly hold off on feeding for a few weeks, and when you do offer food, only offer small food items ever 12 days or so.

good luck.
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eddie · #17 (**permalink**) 11-18-2002, 07:04 PM

Metranidazole is flagyl, a dewormer.
If used, it's best to be used alone instead of with food, but unless a fecal shows signs of worms, I would not add it in or use it.

You can add pedialyte to the water or use it straight. You can also use gatorade a soak, but use the clear ones unless you want a funny colored snake several months before Easter.

Waiting the 2.5 weeks (possibly longer) and giving a food item smaller than normal is gonna be the best bet in my opinion. Along with having several stool samples for the vet to look at to ensure that it's worm free or not.
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telefrag · #18 (**permalink**) 11-18-2002, 07:06 PM

Do'h

HAHA Eddie. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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springs_butterfly · #19 (**permalink**) 11-18-2002, 07:34 PM

ah, didn't realize that Metradinazole was Flagyl. Her fecal was negative earlier in the month, I don't think that's the issue. I might try the pedialyte, though......unless there's a special on the blue gatorade. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]

I think I'll try a rat pup towards the end of the month and see what happens. Until then, I'll keep up her daily soaks.

Thanks for the advice.

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