Are rats REALLY more nutritious than mice?

[widemind]

Hey all,
Unluckyseventeen and I were just debating the concept that rats are more nutritious than mice. Aside from the obvious that rats are larger than mice and provide more of a meal, does anyone have any actual solid documented/published evidence from true research showing that rats are in fact more nutritious than mice, ounce per ounce, or something? Or is there anyone here that has documented research of their own, perhaps you breeders here, that shows an increase in growth by feeding your snakes rats as opposed to mice? If so, how much of a growth increase?
ANY info will be helpful.
Thanks!
Adam

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[Rex322]

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

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[unluckyseventeen]

Kinda wish I could understand all of the abbreviations, but from what I gathered, the calories per gram is the most important part.

Mice are listed as 5.25 for anything over 10 grams. Anything under 10 grams is too small to feed even a very small Boa... we're talkin jelly bean size.

Rats are 5.30, 5.55, 6.37 for under 10, 10-50, and 50+ respectively.

So I guess documentation backs it up.

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[amercnwmn]

wow Jason...THAT was informative...
so does rodent pro actually SELL calves and deer?? lol

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[Rex322]

lol nope. only mice rats rabbits guniea pigs and quail

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[amercnwmn]

quail?? what eats quail? besides homer, who obviously will eat whatever he wants LOL

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[RioBravoReptiles]

Small boas will more quickly bulk-up on pre-weaned rats than medium mice (if they are able to correctly digest them). The difference in nutrition between the two besides the average mass (weight) seems to be associated with the average protein vs fat content. Fat, as we know, contains more calories per gram. A pre-wened rat is heavier in fats than a medium mouse.. so it is true that such a meal contains more nutrition than a similar-sized (medium) mouse. The question is more properly phrased "which is better for your developing Boa?" not "which has more calories". Then too is the question of roughage or indigestible matter, it is easy to see that a rat pup has very little compared to a mouse of similar mass.. what are the effects on digestion and gut-function of a constant diet of (the baby boa equivalent of) cheeseburgers? It seems that it may be similar to what such a diet may accomplish with other species.
.
Very little real information is available about the effects of feeding and different food items on longevity, fecundity and health of Boa. Very much anecdotal info suggests that Boas raised more conservatively live longer and reproduce more consistently.. and I agree. Here I watch each boa and see how it is growing and adjust what is being fed, how often and so-on based upon my experiences and expectations for the individual animal. Usually small Boa get fuzzy mice for the first few months and then graduate to larger mice or rat pups.. depending upon the subspecies, locality and how the individual responds they may get more or less feedings of larger or smaller prey.. mice or rats.. but generally speaking it may be months before my baby boas move up to large fuzzy rats, which is what many keepers advocate for first feedings.
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What is lacking in any rule, checklist or whatever that I've seen is that element of individual attention and care which I believe is so important.. those graphs and care-sheets and schedules are only a baseline not the Bible on boa-care. The oft-repeated mantra "rats are more nutritious" is the same.. perhaps that's true by some definition.. but is a diet of rats actually what your boa needs now, at this point in it's development?
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Raising Your boa to a long life or long-term reproductive success is as much an art as a science.
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Gus/Rio Bravo Reptiles.

[Heidi]

Looks to me like rats have higher protein also.

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[Heidi]

Darn it Gus, I can't compete. I quit!!!

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[JuliusSqueezer]

Here's some food for thought...so to speak. if your snake can eat an adult mouse, a large fuzzy or weaned rat should be about the same size...or at least there is a young rat by whatever particular feeder pet name you give it that should be the same size as whatever mouse you were considering for a boa. Now think about this. WHICH animal do you think would be healthier to eat? a very young rat with growing bones...packed full of extra calcium both because of the growing bones and because it's still or very recently was nursing...or a decrepid old elderly mouse who's by now somewhat calcium defecient and who has more fur than lean meat anyway?

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[brownsfan222]

my friend has fed his snake huge adult mice for its whole life (not a big snake its a sinaloan) because he didnt know how much better rats were, i told him and he had a guy that worked for rodentpro show him a bag of rats that were the same size as adult mice and he quickly noticed how much more meat rats had on them. he said the rat didnt look fat just looked more muscular. so i guess there is more body mass on rats for their size?

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[brownsfan222]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

Here's some food for thought...so to speak. if your snake can eat an adult mouse, a large fuzzy or weaned rat should be about the same size...or at least there is a young rat by whatever particular feeder pet name you give it that should be the same size as whatever mouse you were considering for a boa. Now think about this. WHICH animal do you think would be healthier to eat? a very young rat with growing bones...packed full of extra calcium both because of the growing bones and because it's still or very recently was nursing...or a decrepid old elderly mouse who's by now somewhat calcium defecient and who has more fur than lean meat anyway?

good point, i agree....................

[RioBravoReptiles]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

Here's some food for thought...so to speak. if your snake can eat an adult mouse, a large fuzzy or weaned rat should be about the same size...or at least there is a young rat by whatever particular feeder pet name you give it that should be the same size as whatever mouse you were considering for a boa. Now think about this. WHICH animal do you think would be healthier to eat? a very young rat with growing bones...packed full of extra calcium both because of the growing bones and because it's still or very recently was nursing...or a decrepid old elderly mouse who's by now somewhat calcium defecient and who has more fur than lean meat anyway?

.
You have a strong preference for feeding rats to small Boa that you have demonstrated many times.. if that works for you toward the goals that you set for your animals.. great!. My comments weren't meant as an attack on that idea, only to add to the info available. Whether true or false, the statement "rats are more nutritious" falls short of the point of the discussion. That point is.. the longterm health and success of our animals.
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These discussions many times seem to quickly take on the character of a debate, instead of just an exchange of experience. I'm unsure why except that somehow personal feelings or reputations get involved.. and that's just crazy.. who really cares if tomorrow someone feeds their baby boa a rat or a mouse? I was told by my debate instructor "the first casualty of any debate is the truth" (who I believe was only quoting Voltaire or some other un-impeachable source).. so right here I declare there is no debate! ... only friends exchanging experience.
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Your question about rats VS decrepit mice is strongly prejudiced towards your preference for feeding rats! What I can say is that healthy mice have virtually the same calcium available as a preweaned rat of the same mass (according to an educated friend of mine).. it's in the bones, so available calcium shouldn't be a concern..
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I work with more Boa of a (comparatively) wider range of genetics than practically any one person I know of, and do so quite successfully. From this vantage-point I (again) say it is how closely you observe your individual animals under the conditions you supply that will determine exactly how well you do with your Boas. What Gus or anybody tells you about food ittems (and the rest of the care-sheet propoganda) can only add to what you learn from your animals.
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Your buddy, Gus.

[RioBravoReptiles]

Originally Posted by Heidi

Darn it Gus, I can't compete. I quit!!!

.
Well, if this was a CUTE contest, I wouldn't even be in the running with you, I'm sure!
.
Be good.

[Ratsicles]

Widemind didnt specify same size, same weight, or same age animal, thus leaving open a wide range of responses.

Generally younger animals are healthier, have more vitamins and minerals, and more fat content. In young animals most of their bones havent yet hardened, making them easier to break down (less calorie expenditure to break down an item means more calories used for growing). Of course there are exceptions, but its a good general rule.

Personally I switch my boas to rats as soon as I can. The reason ... I raise rats and dont want to raise mice. However I dont think that a straight diet of only one food item is healthy ... so I use mice every now and then. I dont really like to clean up feathery messes so I tend to not feed birds.

Bryan

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[gjmccag]

In my personal experience, i started with mice because my favorite petstore (Petco,jk) only had mice that my boa would be able to eat. when he was large enough to take down a f/t small rat, i started him on that. Since he has been on rats, he has grown at a much faster growth rate, with regards to the girth rule. It seems rats get the snake bigger faster. Whether this is good or not, this is open to debate, who knows, but my guess is that it is.

[Ranger]

As Gus said, it's as much an art as a science. The thing that makes it true is the fact that there has never been a scientific study to determine the optimal nutritional requirements of a Boa at the various stages of its life.

If martians were raising captive bred humans in a giant viv. without any definitive data on our nutritional needs, different diets could yield similar results, when paired with other husbandry factors. The martians would be debating the merits of beef vs. pork. vs. seafood.

IMHO, a Boa eating mice in otherwise optimal conditions could certainly be healthier than a rat eater in bad temps, huidity, and filth (and visa versa).

I feed rats because they are meatier, stink less, are snake-sized, and the Boa pound them down. They appear to be a great food choice (as attested to by the success of thousands of rat feeders), but make no mistake, we're all doing the best we know how with what we have readilly available. I seriously doubt that nature's perfect Boa diet is exclusively albino lab rats, but it sure works great for captives!

The shame in any "debate" is when the amount of heat exceeds the amount of light generated.

That being said, has anyone tried feeding those little boneless hams they sell at the supermarket?

[widemind]

Originally Posted by Ranger

The shame in any "debate" is when the amount of heat exceeds the amount of light generated.

Well said! That was my problem - I was finding a lot of "heat" all over the internet about this subject, but not a whole lot of supporting facts about actual nutrition. It's awesome that you guys are so willing to help - especially on questions that I'm sure have been asked about 10 thousand times by other people in this forum. Thanks Rex322 for the nutrition chart!

I linked this thread directly to our site for quick future reference at http://redtailboafaq.com/feeding.php#q2 - hopefully someone out there will appreciate this info and find it as helpful as I did. You guys are awesome!

Thanks again for all the feedback!
Adam

PS - Gus, that snake you sent unluckyseventeen ROCKS! I added your site to our "links" section, I hope that's cool with you.

PS AGAIN - All the info on our website was researched by unluckyseventeen - so if there's something that needs to be fixed, blame him, it's all his fault!

[darylnchris]

We have a 5 foot boa that we are feeding mice - we live in a small community and do not have access to a pet store so we are raising mice ourselves - at this time we are feeding her 3 or 4 mice per feeding. We also have a vitamin that can be sprinkled on the mice before feeding but have not used this. I am very new to this whole snake thing and would like to know if what we are doing is okay.
Here is the real kicker though when we bought her we found out to our surprise a week and a half later that she was pregnant and we now have a 10day old baby that seems to be doing great - I have been all over the internet and can find nothing about caring for it - I was told not to feed it until after its first shed (about 10 to 14days after birth) the baby is 10 days old and shows no sign of shedding, so question is how do we feed him and when can we feed him.

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