Thinking about feeding LIVE? Welcome to the Live Pile - Page 3

TekWarren · #41 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 06:39 PM

*EDIT to above* OK I have earned the title of "Shameless" on this grand rep point system and all because a few people want to gang up on me and can't understand TWO SIMPLE POINTS.

WOW....just....WOW

Thank you to all who played the game.

louise · #42 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 06:54 PM

okay lets say anything bad in private messages. i dont want this thread removed. it needs to be here so people can see what live feeding causes.

BWSmith · #43 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 07:22 PM

Tek, I am curious how you, yourself, effectively "disable" a live rodent. The norm, in my experience, is whacking. Of course very shortly after that one of two things happens: the rat wakes up or dies (becoming pk). The only other option I see is the removal of the rodents' teeth. Which I feel it too cruel to consider an option. If there is a good way, I would be anxious to see it to add it to my bag of tricks for the 1% that won't immediately accept f/t.

In my experience, there are two kinds of snakes: Those that immediately accept f/t and those that will soon. Of course, in this statement I am referring to species of snakes that will generally accept rodents as prey items.

Being forced to feed live rodents is a very rare instance. And i would venture to say that the 1% that Wreckwriter mentioned is fairly accurate. I would also be bold enough to say that the 1% that DO require live prey to initiate a feeding response can be converted to F/T within 2 to 3 feedings.

Given the rarity that live is needed, I would consider prekilled or f/t prey to be accurate as "The Rule" and the 1% of the time that live is required is the "exception to The Rule".

wreckwriter · #44 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TekWarren

I gave you ONE neg rep point...not that it matters its all just a game. I have went from I think 4 or 5 down to 2 in this thread alone. That's fine though it means nothing to me. I never once personally attacked anyone. YOU DID and continue to do so with such comments as "you must not get out much" PLEASE you are continuing to have fun trying to shoot me down for reasons unkown based on your biased assumptions of me when you don't really have a clue do you. I am not here for an arguement at all, it is clearly stated by YOU that I am only trying to "justify poor practices" Tell me that's not something that would get you hot and create sparks?? When I simply implied two points neither of which had anything to do with promoting the use of live food items for reptiles. I at least was man enough to see that I was out of line and openly appologized, CLEARLY it is you looking for an argument as you continue to push the subject and my buttons.

I wish you other people could see what my points are rather than continue to think down upon me for what you THINK I am condoning... I simply stated that the images here may not be the best method nor appropriate for some visitors. I only say that for the well being of the site to PREVENT problems that could arrise should someone not clearly understand the warning and the message the pictures are meant to represent. My other point AGAIN is simply the way the message of how the subject of live feeding is conveyed. If you (or anyone) has been keeping reptiles for over 40yrs then you very well know not every animal you come in contact with is going to "abide" by this "rule". I was only trying suggest a change of tone such as using the word "recommended" rather than making seem like a sin to feed live. I stated I will feed DISABLED live...if I have to. I have not seen a single post here touching on the subject of feeding disabled live. Its like its black and white for this topic and this is just not so.

To those of you who actually read all of this I sincerely thank you for your time. I am not here to cause trouble and if personal oppinions and experiences are not welcome well then I do appologize for trying to soften this subject for those who do not have the knowledge many of us have. To WW...I don't know what want with me. If you must continue with your personal comments I think private messages would be more appropriate rather than turning this thread into a gang beating. I invite any private comments, I don't know why its so hard to get 2 simple points across without being lashed out againts but I will definately take the time to explain it for those who still think wrongly of what I am saying.

-TW

You started the rep points game, its hardly my fault if someone gave you bad ones. You'll note that I did not.

You want to continue addressing yourself to me and have this be a personal thing, that's cool too. You say that I didn't research your other posts; well, yes I did. About half are on the price of ball pythons, the other half are another example of you making the same argument you made in this thread.

You got your points across, had you made them in a less than snotty know-it-all fashion I might not have made the remark that got you started on this diatribe about how I'm abusing you.

I have no interest in continuing this here. You've made your point, I gave my opinion of it.

toker · #45 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 07:50 PM

To get back on subject, I am by no means "big man on the block" However I have taken in 3 rescues. Each one of them the owner told me they would in no way take anything but live. I would take them home, thaw out a rodent and the critter would eat it if not on the spot by the next morning.

My last BP rescue was fed live for 7 years, first try with me and he at f/t.

My brother has a ball that he told me time and time again would not eat anything but live, no matter what. I went over there with a frozen rodent, thawed it out and put it in the tote with his ball. Right away this ball started "killing it" and later ate it.

What I am trying to say is, 1%, perhaps, but I would say less than 1%. I am in no way exposed to everything that most people on this site are exposed to, but IMO what is impossible for one is very possible for another.

Never have I see a critter that honestly would not eat anything but live.

And on a personal note, I love F/T, I would rather get a rodent out of the freezer than go to the pet store every day.

MTB Mamba · #46 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 07:59 PM

Like toker I am not the "big man on the block" even less experienced than toker.

I only had one "rescue" and it was a mild rescue at that. The lady realized she couldn't care for the snake (BP) anymore and put it up for sale soon enough that the snake was doing quite well when I got him.

He hadn't eaten "for about two weeks" and wouldn't eat F/T though and thats what I had on hand. After some time for him to settle in I offered a f/t rat which he refused to eat even when left with him all night I repeated this three times over the next week/week and a half. A few days later I gave him another before I went out for the night, when I came back 3 hours later the rat was gone. Since that day he fed regularly every 7 days until he was regular enough and eater, and no longer a "scared" of human touch and handling. I then sold him to a friend and he's been doing wonderfully for him eating F/T.

louise · #47 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 08:10 PM

okay i tried to PM you back 4 times tekwarren but it wont work. it keeps freezing my comp. so i will answer you here. nothing upsets me more then live feeding. the first snake in this thread is my girl chance. she went through #$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^& and back cause her old owner insisted on feeding live. many people have came to me for help to switch thier snake from live to F/T. they all thought it was impossible. i havent had one failure yet. i too say it has to be less then 1% that refuses dead. sure the pics are graphic but all to real. the newbies need to see what live feeding can and more the likely will do to thier pets. you are the first person i have given bad rep points to. i hate that someone is telling people that live feeding is okay. it is not okay and never will be.

BWSmith · #48 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 08:11 PM

This boa was fed live its entire life. All I had to do was offer a f/t and he readily accepted it. If THIS boa will eat f/t, just about any boa will.

louise · #49 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 08:13 PM

that pic breaks my heart everytime i see it

louise · #50 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 08:14 PM

one more thing...wreckwriter has 40 yrs. experience with reptiles and you are 25 yrs old by your profile. how can you think you have more experience then him? i wont even get into BWsmith...he is a legend in the snake world. for your own good you need to listen to these people. actually for your critters own good.

TekWarren · #51 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 08:18 PM

The methods in which I have used and consider "disabled" would be a state in which the prey item has lost the nuerological ability to control its motor abilities. Basically parts of it are still moving involuntarily as signals to the brain are trying to determine how to get where they need to go. No the rodent is not able to move on its own so in my experience some dancing may be needed and the rodent is still breathing to an extent which is an added stimulation...again in my experience. There are several methods, "whacking" I guess could be one if you can be precise enough not to destroy the animal with the force of the blow, there are Co2 methods, vertibrae points that can be broken, etc... I guess its just knowing how far to go to keep some "kick" in the prey item. Some methods could be considered cruel...but ultimately your putting the item to death either way. Do you put care into not causing harm to the rodent on its way to death...or do you not feed a problem reptile?? (assuming an animal that won't feed on PK/FT or one that is transitioning).

You have brought up another point. Transitioning is a whole other topic but yes I agree it can be done, I have no arguement about that whatsoever. This kinda goes along with my point about feeding "live" as considered in my personal methods of disabled items. With all this talk about how horrible it is to feed live items there is nothing to help new owners learn how to transition from one phase to the other. Its simply this is what will happen if you do this. Not a single post of recommendations or that it is ok to feed live and here are recommendations for feeding "live" (as I use the term) through the transition to PK/FT. To look at it from a new owner's stand point and just absorbing all kinds of new found information the messages conveyed are nearly read that if you are feeding live you should stop immediately and feed PK/FT. Sure the reptile may be fine if it doesn't feed for a month or two (this time frame does not need to be debated...its just a point) because it isn't adjusted for the drastic change in feeding methods...but is this really looking out for the well being of the animal?

I simply think that if there are going to be posts like this...and I am not going to be granted the courtesey of sharing my own experiences that there should be more in depth information followed up. TELL people how to get from one phase to the other and give them the methods to keep the reptile out of harms way. Don't just post a thread about how wrong it is with a bunch of discustingly gory images with no direction. The soul purpose of this thread states:

"The Live Pile is a thread dedicated to the horror stories of feeding your reptiles live prey items."

"Please only post an accurate description of what happened, pics if you have them and refrain from making comments on other's posts."

I'll be the first to admit I am 100% in the wrong as I have made personal comments (but not against any particular person or story) when it was specifically asked not to. Maybe I'm just to into the education factor and wanting to see responsible owners but 9 times out of 10 those that come are looking for just that, to become educated and the only thing I see this thread doing is creating nervous keepers who *could* be headed down the wrong path without proper guidence. In short this topic only touches a fraction of what should be put out on the subject.

Again I want to appologize that my comments have caused such an uproar and that I seem to be the cause of this topic's derailment, this is not at all what I had intended and i do not wish to cause any more of a problem. Anyone who wishes to "convey" they thoughts to me please use PM's or IM's.

louise · #52 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 08:22 PM

Quote:

With all this talk about how horrible it is to feed live items there is nothing to help new owners learn how to transition from one phase to the other. Its simply this is what will happen if you do this

at the end of chances story on this thread i have told people to contact me and i will walk them through it. i have had many people come to me and i have dont just that and i will always find time to help anyone that needs it switching over.

BWSmith · #53 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 08:25 PM

I would be interested to know more about a CO2 method. I have only used it to dispatch.

You have to remember that this is, for the most part, the first thread dedicated to this subject. While threads on transitioning to f/t have peppered the forums for years and there is no shortage of information and instruction on this procedure here at rtb.net. The scope of this thread was set as being very narrow.

TekWarren · #54 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louise

one more thing...wreckwriter has 40 yrs. experience with reptiles and you are 25 yrs old by your profile. how can you think you have more experience then him? i wont even get into BWsmith...he is a legend in the snake world. for your own good you need to listen to these people. actually for your critters own good.

If you can quote any statement I have made in this thread that insinuates that I have more experience than any other keeper I will immediately retract the statement. My comments are not directed at WW as you are making this out to be. And I never once, nor would I say that I have more experience than anyone else.

Once AGAIN I do not doubt the knowledge of WW or BW...if you would simply pay attention you would realize that my animals are in no harm nor have they ever been. That is not even what my comments have been about! GET THE POINT I DO NOT FEED LIVE...gal dang! Why can't you pay attention?

pathfinder36 · #55 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TekWarren

Anyone who wishes to "convey" they thoughts to me please use PM's or IM's.

That would completely "de-rail" the whole point of this forum. Discussions like these allow everyone to hear point-counterpoint and learn. Taking a disagreement to PMs only numbs those who don't know the massive controversy in this hobby regarding issues like these to what's really going on.

louise · #56 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 08:31 PM

okay you dont feed live. but you are making it seem like it is okay. this thread bothered you that so many of us dedicated a thread to the hazards of feeding live.

TekWarren · #57 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 08:31 PM

I appologize louise...I just can't contain it anymore. I am glad you have helped others with their ordeals and I urge you to continue. I am done ruining this topic obviosly it has gone way out of proportion.

TekWarren · #58 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pathfinder36

That would completely "de-rail" the whole point of this forum. Discussions like these allow everyone to hear point-counterpoint and learn. Taking a disagreement to PMs only numbs those who don't know the massive controversy in this hobby regarding issues like these to what's really going on.

I agree whole hartedly with this but I will not continue this discussion at the expense of myself, credibility, and any glimmer of respect I may have been able to earn from other reptile breeders, keepers, and owners that utilize this site.

louise · #59 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TekWarren

I appologize louise...I just can't contain it anymore. I am glad you have helped others with their ordeals and I urge you to continue. I am done ruining this topic obviosly it has gone way out of proportion.

i dont want to chase you away, really i dont. i just want you to see how bad live feeding is. believe me i will be nice to you on other threads and if you post pics i will be the first one to say how nice your snakes are.

pathfinder36 · #60 (**permalink**) 09-12-2005, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TekWarren

GET THE POINT I DO NOT FEED LIVE...gal dang! Why can't you pay attention?

She doesn't have to "get the point". We could all care less that you say you don't feed live. Fact is that you are advocating a highly discouraged practice in the herp world on a herp lovin' forum. You're going to catch some highly motivated flack from a TON of people on this site for just that.

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