Thinking about feeding LIVE? Welcome to the Live Pile - Page 21

Katie M · #**401** (**permalink**) 02-17-2010, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleppery

So correct me if I'm wrong....but the point you are getting at with the frozen is that it is less harmful to the snake.
So how is an unconscious rat harmful?
Are you just being stubborn and sticking to your guns with the frozen?
If she wants to eat an unconscious rat I'm going to give it to her. I don't want to 'starve' her til she eats what I give her. That doesn't sound right to me. She's family. I wouldn't starve my son til he decided he was hungry enough to eat a green bean. I will find a vegetable that is just as healthy that he enjoys, like carrots. Same situation with Tiamat. It's knocked out. Not going to hurt her. And that's how she wants to eat it. So I think it's fine. I'm not tossing in an alert rat that can defend itself. That would be idiotic, hence the rat slamming x.x

the problem is that an unconscious rat CAN wake up... I've seen it happen. It you're going to slam the rat anyway, why not kill it? As far as the word "starve" goes, I was careful NOT to use that term. Skipping a meal is just as natural to them as you think live is for them. Snakes in the wild don't have a steady source of nutrition on a schedule, so not eating for a few weeks is not the same as starving a mammal

Ophiophilia · #**402** (**permalink**) 02-17-2010, 10:08 PM

Here's the link:
I feel HORRIBLE!

Poor Trendkill. ):

SUAD · #**403** (**permalink**) 02-17-2010, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleppery

Now that I think about it....the things might even actually be dead. I don't check their pulse or anything...

Man, so long as you are sure the rat is DEAD, there's no need to worry about it. Pop it's little vermin neck after you slam it, that's a garuntee it won't come back. I like to use F/T a lot myself, but don't let anyone tell you you HAVE TO HAVE frozen. I prekill a good amount of feeders every two weeks (Rats...I get my mice most of the time online) and so long as they're history - it's all good.

Yes, rats can come back....if you're a total dolt who can't kill one correctly and properly identify something as DEAD. You're fine. Some people are more "cautious" than others about the situation, and that's fine too, but the world won't stop turning if you kill them yourself.

SUAD · #**404** (**permalink**) 02-17-2010, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ophiophilia

Here's the link:
I feel HORRIBLE!

Poor Trendkill. ):

Homie should've broken the rat's neck, never let a pre-kill go in there without a severed spine. This was a case of user-error, and I can see why they'd feel horrible.

Ophiophilia · #**405** (**permalink**) 02-17-2010, 11:06 PM

Yes, but that was kind of a response to Sleppery's:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleppery

So how is an unconscious rat harmful?

Sleppery · #**406** (**permalink**) 02-18-2010, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUAD

Man, so long as you are sure the rat is DEAD, there's no need to worry about it. Pop it's little vermin neck after you slam it, that's a garuntee it won't come back. I like to use F/T a lot myself, but don't let anyone tell you you HAVE TO HAVE frozen. I prekill a good amount of feeders every two weeks (Rats...I get my mice most of the time online) and so long as they're history - it's all good.
Yes, rats can come back....if you're a total dolt who can't kill one correctly and properly identify something as DEAD. You're fine. Some people are more "cautious" than others about the situation, and that's fine too, but the world won't stop turning if you kill them yourself.

I will start doing that with their necks and see what happens. If she has been eating dead rats and not unconscious ones it shouldn't bother her. Not sure why she won't eat the frozen ones.

I did read somewhere that frozen rats don't have the same nutritional value though. Not sure if its true but it might bee something to consider if you feed frozen.

morti · #**407** (**permalink**) 02-18-2010, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleppery

So how is an unconscious rat harmful?

Rat guts contain parasites. Freezing kills the parasites and turns them into just a little more digestible protein. Live parasites directly introduced into your snake's bellies is not good.

morti · #**408** (**permalink**) 02-18-2010, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleppery

I did read somewhere that frozen rats don't have the same nutritional value though. Not sure if its true but it might bee something to consider if you feed frozen.

Freezing any meat one time reduces its nutritional value by amounts so infinitesimal as to be almost non-existent. Re-freezing reduces it much more. I can dig up the journal I read this in if I absolutely have too or you can just say "Thank you for sharing your wisdom Uncle Morti" and I will go back to sleep.

Sleppery · #**409** (**permalink**) 02-18-2010, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morti

Freezing any meat one time reduces its nutritional value by amounts so infinitesimal as to be almost non-existent. Re-freezing reduces it much more. I can dig up the journal I read this in if I absolutely have too or you can just say "Thank you for sharing your wisdom Uncle Morti" and I will go back to sleep.

Well....thank you for sharing your wisdom uncle morti!! lol

and about the parasites in the rat? What does a wild snake do? Not eat? Tons of animals have parasites. You would think an animal's body would begin to grow immune to the harmful things and evolve to a point where it would have the best chance of survival. Like mosquitoes have done with certain types of pesticides.

bananasama · #**410** (**permalink**) 02-18-2010, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleppery

and about the parasites in the rat? What does a wild snake do? Not eat? Tons of animals have parasites. You would think an animal's body would begin to grow immune to the harmful things and evolve to a point where it would have the best chance of survival. Like mosquitoes have done with certain types of pesticides.

There is a pretty significant difference between a wild snake and one kept in your home, captive bred snakes just aren't as well prepared to handle those parasites. The mortality rate for snakes in the wild is also quite a bit higher in general(assuming you have a responsible keeper for pet snakes).

SUAD · #**411** (**permalink**) 02-18-2010, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleppery

Well....thank you for sharing your wisdom uncle morti!! lol
and about the parasites in the rat? What does a wild snake do? Not eat? Tons of animals have parasites. You would think an animal's body would begin to grow immune to the harmful things and evolve to a point where it would have the best chance of survival. Like mosquitoes have done with certain types of pesticides.

I think he means in a relative sense: wild rats and mice are obviously going to be loaded down beyond belief with parasites in comparison to captive raised and bred mice and rats. And while captive feeders probably have infintesimal amounts of "bugs", I don't know of very many people who have had transmission from feeder to snake (at least not here and from the source of feeders we have) - that's not to say Morti doesn't know what he's talking about or is wrong (and I haven't run fecals on any of my current snakes), he may know of more examples than I do. I can only say that none of my animals *seem to have* have any issues with fresh pre-killed since I've had them.

Nevertheless: f/t is great to use, and certainly presents no issues.

SUAD · #**412** (**permalink**) 02-18-2010, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bananasama

There is a pretty significant difference between a wild snake and one kept in your home, captive bred snakes just aren't as well prepared to handle those parasites. The mortality rate for snakes in the wild is also quite a bit higher in general(assuming you have a responsible keeper for pet snakes).

Precisely, this is spot-on. Much in the same way that captive bred feeders are totally different from wild ones in terms of parasite-load.

Sakara · #**413** (**permalink**) 02-18-2010, 04:05 AM

not to mention a LOT more snakes die in the wild due to whatever issue then in captivity... I would LIKE to think that we keep better care of our animals then what they do in the wild

Sleppery · #**414** (**permalink**) 02-18-2010, 04:16 AM

I see what you are saying and I agree with the difference in pets and wild animals. I know that rats are very dirty little critters but I don't think that they can have THAT many problems to effect the snake in so many ways. I like to think the biggest issue with store rats is inbreeding, but that doesn't really effect the snake at all.

nitram · #**415** (**permalink**) 05-30-2010, 02:04 AM

i feel like garbage.
been contemplating about whether to post this and get trashed on or not to post it.... in the end i decided to post it just for the sake of anyone still so stupid i was until about moments ago, when it happened to me.
a little debriefing: i was feeding live (obviously) and usually would sit and watch but this was the last one to feed and i was tired of watching rat pups die so i just left it in there, since she was on and off live since ive had her, and she's always been my champion feeder (took the head clean off a f/t once) i didnt think twice about it.... I checked on all the kids later that night and didnt notice anything more than a bunch of fat bellies. this was what i found recently, she had just shed, and i thought "is my humidity wrong?" cause she had what appeared to be retained shed in 3 different sections right below where her body begins, after the head. I calmly walk to the bathroom and set up some luke warm water, some quilt tips, all the jazz... and when i start to work at it (gently), i realize "OH MY FREAKIN GOD THIS ISNT A RETAINED SHED THESE ARE BATTLE WOUNDS"....
add insult to injury, she takes f/t just fine, as do all my snakes... this was pure laziness.... add more insult to injury, she's still sooooooo docile and still interracts with me and the camera, exploring with her tongue flickering, when she should hate my stinking guts for letting her down and setting her up for disaster... so bring on the bashing, i definately deserve it for sure. while youre thinking of things to say to me, let me show you some of the pictures i tried to take, illustrating her wounds.

i think these 2 show her bite marks the best, you can actually see the pink in her flesh in em.

what kills me the most is that i knew better.... i had read this thread before... i had seen other threads in other sites showing images such as these (and worse ones)... somehow i thought "man, this little rat pup thats barely openin his eyes cant do nothing to my lean mean killin machine"
i was wrong. sooooo wrong. even stupid little pups can mess up your snake. even though she "won" the battle and ate the rat in the end, she still payed a price for it. a price she didnt have to, and its all my fault. never again will a live rodent be offered to my babies.

DiamondCreek · #**416** (**permalink**) 07-26-2010, 09:40 PM

How many of these "horror" stories are due to tossing a live rodent in with snake and walking away? I feed live, in a separate enclosure, and actively watch the process.

*duck and cover*

Sakara · #**417** (**permalink**) 07-26-2010, 10:00 PM

how large is your snake? I guarantee you when you start feeding large+ size rats and rabbits you will notice a difference. mice die pretty quick... rats don't... I've seen rats watch snakes and jump over their strikes... rats are not stupid... they will fight till death and that ONE time that the snake doesn't have a perfect wrap the rat could injure or kill the snake...

I, personally, care about my animals and won't feed live because I don't want that one time to happen... my snakes are my pets and family...not to mention I'm not going to spend $50, $100, $500, $1,000 on a snake to let it get bit...plus it's cheaper... a LOT cheaper... I spend under $300 for a few months worth of food for 40 snakes... I'd pay $200-300 a WEEK on my snakes if I fed live...

point being though... why risk it? it's safer in many ways for your snake to feed frozen... do you feed your dogs and cats live prey? cats and dogs eat live prey if they live in the wild... but our dogs, cats, snakes are NOT wild animals and should not be treated as such.

DiamondCreek · #**418** (**permalink**) 07-26-2010, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sakara

how large is your snake?

My Ball Python is right at two feet and my Red Tail is about 20-22 inches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sakara

I, personally, care about my animals and won't feed live because I don't want that one time to happen... my snakes are my pets and family...not to mention I'm not going to spend $50, $100, $500, $1,000 on a snake to let it get bit...plus it's cheaper... a LOT cheaper... I spend under $300 for a few months worth of food for 40 snakes... I'd pay $200-300 a WEEK on my snakes if I fed live...

I have only two snakes, so cost isn't really an issue. I also have a breeding colony of mice started, so my already cheap costs will continue to go down. I'm quite attached to my snakes...hence watching the process in a separate enclosure and not just tossing a rodent in and walking away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sakara

point being though... why risk it? it's safer in many ways for your snake to feed frozen... do you feed your dogs and cats live prey? cats and dogs eat live prey if they live in the wild... but our dogs, cats, snakes are NOT wild animals and should not be treated as such.

Of course I don't want either of my snakes to have bite injuries from their food. What I noticed, though, with my Ball is that she seems to be much healthier being fed live. I started her on F/T after all the horror stories. She has had quite the growth spurt in the last few months since I started feeding her live.

But yes, I may reevaluate this whole thing when the time comes to feed rats. For the Ball, small rats aren't far in the future, either.

toker · #**419** (**permalink**) 07-26-2010, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sakara

how large is your snake? I guarantee you when you start feeding large+ size rats and rabbits you will notice a difference. mice die pretty quick... rats don't... I've seen rats watch snakes and jump over their strikes... rats are not stupid... they will fight till death and that ONE time that the snake doesn't have a perfect wrap the rat could injure or kill the snake...

I, personally, care about my animals and won't feed live because I don't want that one time to happen... my snakes are my pets and family...not to mention I'm not going to spend $50, $100, $500, $1,000 on a snake to let it get bit...plus it's cheaper... a LOT cheaper... I spend under $300 for a few months worth of food for 40 snakes... I'd pay $200-300 a WEEK on my snakes if I fed live...

point being though... why risk it? it's safer in many ways for your snake to feed frozen... do you feed your dogs and cats live prey? cats and dogs eat live prey if they live in the wild... but our dogs, cats, snakes are NOT wild animals and should not be treated as such.

You make some really good points. In the end, you have it... why risk it?

My first boa, she was as happy and healthy as I could tell, fed her a life rat hopper, and in one week, I was digging a hole in the backyard.

Was it the rodent? was it something with the snake? dunno, but I can tell you one thing. I will never feed live again. After all, why risk it

morti · #**420** (**permalink**) 07-26-2010, 10:28 PM

Feeding live is like being a troll on the internet. You know it's wrong and that it will make other people dislike you, but you insist on doing it anyway and rubbing it in peoples faces.

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