Confining animals V 1.0

[mpgt]

This is version 1 of the debate "Confining animals". This is not a place to insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

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When I started reading this, I thought she was going to be on our side, as a new snake owner. Apparently not. She seems concerned that aquarium animals are too confined. What about her dogs? Aren't they confined too? At least with reptiles, there are numerous ways that our keeping them in captivity could benefit wild populations. I'm not sure the same could be said about dogs and cats right now.

JADA PINKETT-SMITH - PINKETT SMITH PLANS FUTURE AS ANIMAL ACTIVIST

[vfoerster]

Why all the bad publicity? I keep my animals in huge cages and actually none of them are in "aquariums" anymore. She probably doesn't realize that with proper care that red tail is going to live for 30 years either.

[_Sam_]

Oy! that's kinda messed up.

[Alex]

...Guess my cousin has to set her horses free now. Because they have 3 pastures to roam around in whenever they want, but as soon as they're in their stalls, they know they're confined...Ugh. I hate celebrities that pull this stuff.

[mpgt]

Horses like hundreds of square miles to freely roam. Dogs would naturally like to run in packs with a very large territory to roam. Cats want to roam a few city blocks looking for love or for something to kill. If you look at the scale, and consider that snakes don't move around near as much, I think keeping a snake is more humane than keeping a dog or cat in the house, or keeping a horse on a few acres.

[ChadRamsey]

Oh GREAT, another egomaniac super-star using her celeberty status as a platform to spew her obnoxiously liberal views on us "LESS fortunate" and uneducated sub-human beings!

[-KB-]

Originally Posted by ChadRamsey

Oh GREAT, another egomaniac super-star using her celeberty status as a platform to spew her obnoxiously liberal views on us "LESS fortunate" and uneducated sub-human beings!

You read my mind...

[BlackLava]

what an idiot....maybe if she had done her research on the boa she would have learned that having TOO much space cause stress the animal out more than having it in a smaller space

[Stargazer]

I suppose I am an idiot, too. I share her sentiments. We really cannot know whether snakes are "happy" or not in captivity. It's a pill I'm willing to swallow because I love my snakes and wish to keep them, but I have always had misgivings about the ethics of keeping reptiles in captivity. Sorry if that's the unpopular view. I just don't think they're like dogs and cats who take easily to domestication.

However, as far as keeping reptiles in captivity goes, I feel that the members of this site really do a great job giving our snakes the best lives they can have--constantly asking questions and trying to make their lives better.

[Jenny06]

So what we cant keep anything as pets like fish, cats, dogs, birds, rabbits, ect...i wish people think before they speak...


oh i forgot so im guessing no more zoos too right b/c they are all caged

[Stargazer]

I think she is just showing sensitivity for what she perceives is the animal's experience. We can really never know what the animal's experience is unless they tell us, so it's all very subjective. I think there are many cases where people keep animals in enclosures/cages that are way too small. How small is too small? Again, it depends who you ask. Some people have given up an entire house with acres of fenced land, just for their cats.

I don't think she is saying we need to shut down the snake breeding industry (unless I read it wrong. Did I?) I think she is just saying she doesn't want to support it because she doesn't feel they should be kept in captivity. She certainly has the right to her opinion. I sometimes feel the same way.

Whether we consider her views are right or wrong in your opinion, she is considering the well being of the animal. Can you say every breeder does this?

[mpgt]

I need to move this to the debate forum.

[Oroborous]

I agree with you Stargazer...sometimes I feel really guilty about keeping my reptiles confined. The least I can do is make sure they are well taken care of and handled regularly so they can have some time to exercise and explore. My beardies make me feel the worst. They love nothing more than being outdoors, they come alive and act like real lizards. But I haven't had much time to take them out this summer, and now that winters coming they're a lot less active and look really sluggish. It's depressing for me to see them like that...but I do it because like everyone else here I love my reptiles a lot.

[mpgt]

I don't think they love or hate anything. They have thrived for millions of years with very little change. How can they do that? Well they are very simple creatures that are much better adapting to their environment than we are. I feel bad when I see a caged big cat or elephant at a zoo. I know they have feelings and emotions; needs that aren't being met. Some zoos are able to satisfy them, but most don't.

I suspect the same is true for reptiles and other small animals in captivity. All animals have certain needs that have to be met in order to thrive. It seems to me that reptiles, and especially snakes, due to their adaptability mentioned above, are easier to satisfy than higher order animals like mammals. There's always more to learn, but I think we do pretty well at meeting their needs. It's not likely that they spend time pining or longing for a rain forest or river they've never seen. Even a WC snake would very likely enjoy and even prefer its new surroundings in the average owner's care. JMO.

[jbd123]

Wow, this is an interesting and touchy subject for alot of people.

My opinion is that if your snake, lizard, turtle, or what-have-you is healthy, eating well, and does not appear to be suffering, then they are relatively happy.

However, I dont think I've ever met a "happy snake". I have met many "satisfied" snakes that seemed very comfortable where they were at, but none that showed any particular emotion to the situation they were in.

I could sware to you that my Ackie monitor is "happy" at times and grouchy at others, and even enjoys watching TV, but that could just be me trying to relate to my pet.

On the other hand, however, I have seen unhealthy animals. Sometimes they are unhealthy because of unrest (such as wild caught animals) but to be perfectly honest it is more or less the fault of the owner then the "longing" nature of the animal itself.

To be perfectly honest, I do not think there is a right or wrong answer on this one. It really is all a matter of opinion until we can find a way to REALLY know what the animals are thinking. Until then, it is all a matter of better judgement on our parts.

I hope that what Mrs. Smith has said does not effect our hobby, but I really dont think that it will. After all, she didn't get rid of the boa, did she?

[John_White]

Jada Pinkett-Smith -"Maybe when I get older, that'll become one of my activist endeavours."

I believe it was just a stray thought or wild hair. It's sounded "good" at the time but, she'll probably never give it another thought.

[mpgt]

If you put your house, boat, car, or even your trash can out in the wilderness somewhere and left it for a while, reptiles and a lot of other creatures would soon call it home. Shelter is one of their few basic needs, and all of the above are better than a hole under a rock. Add heat and a steady supply of food, and they would probably never leave. They would think they were in heaven.

[Stargazer]

Well, this certain overlaps with the debate subject "Do reptiles have feelings?".

Many owners keep their cats indoors for their own safety, and this is the best option for the cat and owner. The cats seem content, especially if they don't know any better. However, I feel cats are happier when they have some access to the outdoors (based on my experiences with cats throughout my life).

I have heard cat shelters cite "research" for why a 1' X 2' cage is adequate space for keeping a cat for many months. It still makes me sad to go to a shelter and see it, in spite of the "research".

Imagine if you kept a human being from birth in a small closet. You give him good food, a place to defecate, books, tv's, hugs, and other forms of enrichment. Will he be happy? And how will you quantify that? By the amount of smiles and laughter?

All I'm saying is that this is subjective and I think Ms. Pinkett's thoughts are as valid as anyone else's. In addition, I think celebrities have the privilege and the right to speak their mind on issues they feel strongly about, just as the rest of us do. If we were all celebrities, wouldn't we do the same? Just because someone's point of view is not the same as ours does not mean they should not speak it. It would be different if she were saying all reptiles should be killed or something like that. But she feels she is advocating for them. I don't see the harm in her opinion. It is people like her that get zoo enclosures enlarged and enrichment programs put in place at zoos.

[Stargazer]

Good call making this a debate thread. I hope people will play fair and not resort to name calling.

[mpgt]

Originally Posted by Stargazer

Imagine if you kept a human being from birth in a small closet. You give him good food, a place to defecate, books, tv's, hugs, and other forms of enrichment. Will he be happy? And how will you quantify that? By the amount of smiles and laughter?

I'm not a behavioral scientist. My uneducated guess is that if that human exhibited no signs of stress, continued to eat, and was willing to reproduce, those are all pretty good signs that his needs are being met. I don't know what it takes to make a reptile "happy". It's probably in that other debate thread.