Law against live feeding? V 1.0

[Rachel SS]

Originally Posted by majkill

I don't wanna sound arrogant or like im pickin on you (cos i'm not) but...
This can only be if the snake comes across the dead animal within a few hours of its demise. Also any longer then that and the animal would have started to decompose, something i also think a snake would stay away from. Yes snakes may be opportunistic, but i don't think its to the extent that they will readily go for dead prey. Although i'm not denying that its entirely possibly this can happen

Okay then let me put it like this. You're putting a prey animal into a tank with a predator, that may or may not feel like eating. In the wild, a rat has a chance to get away. In a tank, it has no where to run. So let's say the snake strikes at the rat and misses. Now the rat KNOWS it's being hunted and attacks the snake because it's fending for its life. There is NO benefit to feeding live.

snakes CAN be switched over to prekilled or frozen. It takes time, it takes patience, and a hungry snake.

[Hartsock]

Originally Posted by missraywoj

Okay then let me put it like this. You're putting a prey animal into a tank with a predator, that may or may not feel like eating. In the wild, a rat has a chance to get away. In a tank, it has no where to run. So let's say the snake strikes at the rat and misses. Now the rat KNOWS it's being hunted and attacks the snake because it's fending for its life. There is NO benefit to feeding live.
snakes CAN be switched over to prekilled or frozen. It takes time, it takes patience, and a hungry snake.

See, she totally ignores me!! I guess I proved her wrong too many times. And when she kept asking me to put her on my ignore list and I wouldn't, that she finally realized she could just put me on the ignore list.

Agains, snakes can be switched over, but not all snakes.

[project_evolution]

If the prey animal harming the reptile is the only concern let me play devils advocate for a second. suppose you raise pigs/rabbits/chickens and only feed newborns or very young to the animal. does this make it more acceptable in your eyes since theres no harm to the snake? Myself I raise chickens and end up with hundreds of chicks every year over what i need. My monitors get as many as they want and a day old chick cant really "fight back".

[Rachel SS]

Originally Posted by project_evolution

If the prey animal harming the reptile is the only concern let me play devils advocate for a second. suppose you raise pigs/rabbits/chickens and only feed newborns or very young to the animal. does this make it more acceptable in your eyes since theres no harm to the snake? Myself I raise chickens and end up with hundreds of chicks every year over what i need. My monitors get as many as they want and a day old chick cant really "fight back".

No. There are still chances of parasites, and I just don't like the idea. I will stick with feeding f/t for my snakes personally. I think it's the safest choice for my animals.

[project_evolution]

Originally Posted by missraywoj

No. There are still chances of parasites, and I just don't like the idea. I will stick with feeding f/t for my snakes personally. I think it's the safest choice for my animals.

Thats the argument ive heard rehashed over and over again,but if your breeders are protected from parasites with the proper feeds/vitamins/etc. and your chicks are hatched in a clean environment and also given the proper supplements that argument really holds very little water. f/t is most definitely safer because they are frozen, and a big rat will tear up your prized snake but there are some pretty safe options available to live feeders if they have the time/space/cash to invest in them.

[Rachel SS]

Originally Posted by project_evolution

Thats the argument ive heard rehashed over and over again,but if your breeders are protected from parasites with the proper feeds/vitamins/etc. and your chicks are hatched in a clean environment and also given the proper supplements that argument really holds very little water. f/t is most definitely safer because they are frozen, and a big rat will tear up your prized snake but there are some pretty safe options available to live feeders if they have the time/space/cash to invest in them.

Well, here's the thing. Some people really don't have the luxury of knowing EXACTLY where their feeders are coming from. If you get them at some generic pet store, they may be harboring some parasites or diseases. Unless you yourself are breeding them or overseeing the care of the feeder animals, you never truly know WHAT you are getting.

[project_evolution]

To get back on topic, its still my belief that governmental interference in the way of laws/regulation is a bad idea. Soon enough we would be limited to keeping geckos and sand boas.

[project_evolution]

Originally Posted by project_evolution

To get back on topic, its still my belief that governmental interference in the way of laws/regulation is a bad idea. Soon enough we would be limited to keeping geckos and sand boas.

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA, looks like I win!

[Ekke]

Okay now that I can get in here.

Here in South Africa it is against the law to feed live. The law is mainly inforced by the SPCA. Okay as you said this is not a easy thing to enforce. The SPCA won't come into your house to check on you, but they are very strict with Pet shops. They will check on Pet shops and it is frowned upon for them to even feed the snakes while they are open. Which is a catch 21 becauce the SPCA check when they are open so they feed just what they want behind closed doors aslong as they don't get caught. Most of the pet shops here also do not "kill" humanly. If you buy frozen feeders here you are nearly sure they were kill by use of table top. The term CO2 chamber is met with a frown and a what is that? I personaly by live and CO2 them at home.

Okay not really part of a debate but some useless / full info.

[Mocha Cappuccino]

I feel like I need to represent a side of this debate that has not had a voice. This is my first post to any debate thread as I am a new member.
BTW Ekke the expression in the US is a "Catch 22"...is it really "Catch 21" in South Africa?...neat.

Law Against Live Feeding?
I do not want to be verbose, so instead of covering all my feelings / points / pros and cons I'll just focus on 2 or 3 areas.

With all the crises in the US, I would be horrified to see a law against live feeding. Pets are personel property, albiet live property. As long as someone is not causing undo suffering or showing neglect to a pet, he/she should be able to do as they please. If certain pets show a threat, i.e. tigers / venomous / etc., I can understand laws against having them. If someone is raising dogs for fighting, I can understand throwing them in jail (cough cough Michael Vick).

But seriously guys/gals...(I cant believe Im going to say this)...I remember when I was a boy and was first introduced to constrictors...I LOVED watching them hunt and feed. Watching these awesome creatures capture prey and kill them in mere seconds without arms or legs is an awe-inspiring site that made me interesting in herps in the first place.

Perhaps when keeping captive reptiles, there are different issues at hand, represented by the myriad other posts already in this thread. However, hunting is the natural order of things and banning the live feeding of reptiles kinda takes the constrictor out of Boa Constrictor...doesnt it?

Mocha Cappuccino

[mpgt]

Originally Posted by Mocha Cappuccino

...However, hunting is the natural order of things and banning the live feeding of reptiles kinda takes the constrictor out of Boa Constrictor...doesnt it?
Mocha Cappuccino

Well not really. Mine always constrict their food as if it were alive and needed killing.

[morti]

Mocha, I think you need convincing that live feeding is bad. Nothing I can type could possibly do that better than simply suggesting that you read this thread:

Thinking about feeding LIVE? Welcome to the Live Pile

Most of us are approaching this debate thread from the position that feeding live is inherently bad. The question is: Should it be legislated?

I feel that it should not because laws rarely allow for exceptions. That one snake that won't eat frozen thawed no matter what. Starting wild caught snakes. Other exceptions like that.

You will find your debate position a difficult sell here on redtailboa.net. Not only are you unlikely to persuade anyone to your position, you will have a great deal of difficulty in general.

[RayRay]

Should it be legislated? If it is, how will it be enforced?

Honestly, it depends on how much you want the government running your life.

Most of us here are opposed to live feeding for obvious reasons. We all know the risks involved, the cost, etc. Okay, that's done and over with.
Ekke raised an interesting point about the actual enforcement of such laws. She mentioned that most shops that sell snakes feed them after hours when they are not being inspected, which means they will feed whatever they want. That's not very good enforcement.

You can apply the same principle to dog fighting, breeding (of any species), and bans on certain types of animals in certain jurisdictions. I'll use dog fighting as an example.

We all know dog fighting is illegal and cruel, but it goes on any way because it's done at night, in seclusion. It's very, very rare for law enforcement to catch people in the act of matching their dogs. Most of the dog fighting busts we see are based on circumstantial evidence such as multiple dogs on chains, makeshift medical supplies, dead dogs, dogs with wounds on them, large sums of money involved, etc. However, most the evidence is entirely circumstantial, unless they are actually caught in the ring fighting with people tossing money around. You have to have most of those factors fall into play before you can even call it a dog fighting bust! A lot of people who responsibly own pit bulls do have tread mills, own multiple animals, or tie them out. Some of their animals do get into fights and have scars. Do they fight them? No, but Uncle Sam might think so based on just 1 or 2 of those factors, and the dogs are confiscated as fighters. Happens ALL THE TIME to decent people and decent animals.


Now, I'll get back on track with feeding live. I have 4 rats of both sexes as pets. They live in the same cage, and cannot reproduce as the males are neutered. I also have a boa constrictor that could easily eat said rats. Say that live feeding of animals is illegal, and animal control comes knocking on my door for whatever reason (they'll do that). They see my rats and my snake and assume I am feeding live rats to my snake. How do I disprove this accusation? After all, in their minds, having a snake and live rats in the same house MUST be grounds for me feeding live. My snake and rats will probably both be confiscated, or at the very least, I'll face a fine. I could probably show them the feeders in the freezer, and a receipt of the purchase. Will it help? I'm not sure. Depends on the mood of the animal control officer, I guess. Since I already have the snake and live rats, why wouldn't I be lying?

Personally, all I believe that we can do is attempt to educate people on the dangers of feeding live and try and keep a good attitude about it. If you let the law get involved, you could have a potential situation like what I mentioned. Animals are in no favor of federal, state, and local government and their welfare just doesn't get looked at as much as it should. When it comes to animals, the solution in the eyes of the government is the "bandaid approach"- they'll place bans on animals they perceive as dangerous, masking the real problem. They'll pass a few weakly enforced laws to keep people quiet and give them a false sense of security. There is no real education involved and no real weighting of the issues at hand, in most cases. Sad, but true.

Bottom line is, just because it is illegal, doesn't mean people won't do it. Should live feeding be made illegal? No. It can't, because there is no way to actually enforce it, at least in the way we imagine/want it to be.

PS:
I'm sorry I had to bring dogs into this, but I belong to a local political advocacy group for the welfare of dogs. I have more knowledge in that subject, but it can apply to all animals as well.

[Mocha Cappuccino]

TY morti for the post. There are some real horror stories in the Live Pile and I appreciate the chance to be further educated.

I feed my snakes half lives and half frozens. Frozens are easily thawed, kill parasites, and actually much more economical than lives from local pet store.
Lives are more natural for the snake (imo) and exciting for "certain" owners. Obviously one can see how the pros and cons weigh out here.

Nonetheless, I do not think I would ever completely quit feeding live, unless a tragedy happened to one of my pets. (IMO) There isn't anything inherently bad about feeding live prey because this is how vast major snakes eat in the wild. Snakes rarely scavenge. They hunt.

Dont get me wrong you guys, i dont throw in a mouse to the babies and walk away and go about my business. I carefully monitor every feeding of either live or frozen prey to make sure each one is successful w/out problems. These horror stories of live prey attacking the snake/reptiles stem from neglectful, uneducated pet owners.

And thus brings me back to the main topic. Should this be legislated? Absolutely not. Legislating neglectful ownership or mistreatment of pets/animals is the way to go. Live feeding is not mistreatment in and of itself, especially when one has wild caught / rehabilitated snakes that will only eat live prey. Outlawing live feeding could unjustly penalize the most compassionate, experienced rehabilitators.

Mocha Cappuccino

[Hairless]

Originally Posted by Mocha Cappuccino

Nonetheless, I do not think I would ever completely quit feeding live, unless a tragedy happened to one of my pets. (IMO) There isn't anything inherently bad about feeding live prey because this is how vast major snakes eat in the wild. Snakes rarely scavenge. They hunt.
Dont get me wrong you guys, i dont throw in a mouse to the babies and walk away and go about my business. I carefully monitor every feeding of either live or frozen prey to make sure each one is successful w/out problems. These horror stories of live prey attacking the snake/reptiles stem from neglectful, uneducated pet owners.

Why on earth would you wait until a tragedy happens?

Captive snakes are not in the wild...and I don't want my beautiful captive snakes to have the scars of their wild counterparts.

Uneducated would be someone who thinks their careful observation of live feeding will prevent something bad from taking place. You are not fast enough to stop a rodent from causing damage to your snake. A defensive rat is not easy game and can inflict serious damage with one bite in less than a second and the only thing your careful observation will do, is allow for instant regret.

It is also much more humane and educated to take the prey's life in the fastest way possible.

No offense, but I don't think you put much thought in all of this...

[Mocha Cappuccino]

I dont anticipate any tragedies or even minor injuries happening to my snakes when I feed live (remember I also feed f/t about half or more of the time). There are surefire ways of preventing those kind of things with live prey.

It feels like a I'm starting to dig a hole here that could get very deep. So I'd like to move the debate back towards a scientific direction with this article post. If you ever wanted to completely blow up my whole side of the arguement....just go here Feeding Prekilled vs. Live Prey

Like I said in my first post....No one is FOR Live feeding...so I thought I'd through in a little spice to the cake.

Mocha Cappuccino

[morti]

This is the Debate forum. Please keep to the specific parameters of the debate: Should there be a law against live feeding?

[TalismanK9]

I'm all for feeding F/T BUT I am not into giving up anymore rights then the government has already TAKEN from me against my consent!

[Snakes Incorporated]

Ethically feeding live is wrong but I catch & release “problem” snakes. Occasionally I have to medically treat and have to feed live due to not interfering with the natural world as I do not want to domestically condition any wild animal

[Sakara]

should there be a law against it? no

do I support live feeding? no

is it nessicary in some situations such as wild rehabs, etc? yes

I've onmy ever had one problem switcher. normal bp REFUSES to eat frozen but will take fresh killed. strange snake, I tried for a year and she refuses frozen. so we came to an agreement since she will at least eat dead stuff.

live pinks for some trouble eaters I can see as being an exception to get someone eating. but no way I heck would I EVER drop a live rat other then a pinkie in with ANY snake for ANY amount of time.