Nature vs nurture? V 1.0

[mpgt]

This is version 1 of the debate "Nature vs nurture?". This thread is not a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

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I guess the question here is do you think captive reptiles (or other animals) are more influenced by nature (instinct) or nurture (environment/handling)?

[CraigC]

I think that we have an ability to condition our charges to live with in the parameters we set up for them. Most of us that research a species to determine what is best for captive specimens, have based or set ups on the trial and error of past keepers. As long as the basic necessities of environmental conditions, food, water and shelter are met, we can be successful in our breeding programs. What else is the best indicator that we are meeting those goals than having successful breeding projects and healthy captives? Emotion has nothing to do with instinct and is only something attributed to mammals of higher order.

Craig

[mpgt]

If a snake acts very defensively when held, is it most likely because of the way it's held or housed, or because of an inherited disposition?

[Icicle]

Originally Posted by mpgt

If a snake acts very defensively when held, is it most likely because of the way it's held or housed, or because of an inherited disposition?

This is a good Question.
Who are we to determine why any animal does any thing. We are simply trying to Simulate Mother Nature, I also believe we are not providing the one thing that Mother Nature can.
In My Own Opion, we all try to keep temp's and humidity at a constance.
Where as Mother Nature they deal with the four seasons (Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter), When we Keep our reptiles we try to mantaine Summer conditions. If we try to Simulate all the seasons and their conditions reptiles may adopt better.
I hear most of you say 12 hours of light on and 12 hours off.
What would happen if we change one variable, what if we turned the lights on when the Earth's sun comes up, and turn off the light when the Sun goes down. Should we also provide other things which Mother Nature throws at us Like high wind, Heavy rain fall.
.
I also believe that snakes will get in a defensive mode by how we Smell or the Smell of surroundings area.

[mpgt]

Icicle,
Q: "Who are we to determine why any animal does any thing?"
A: We need to know why they do things if we expect to keep them successfully.

"We are simply trying to Simulate Mother Nature, I also believe we are not providing the one thing that Mother Nature can."
A: I'm not. I've seen the Central American rain forest first hand. We could never reproduce it.

"In My Own Opion, we all try to keep temp's and humidity at a constance.
Where as Mother Nature they deal with the four seasons (Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter), When we Keep our reptiles we try to mantaine Summer conditions. If we try to Simulate all the seasons and their conditions reptiles may adopt better."
A: Most of my snakes come from temperate rain forests where there are really only 2 seasons; the rainy season and the dry season. There's not a big temperature variance like we see here.

"I hear most of you say 12 hours of light on and 12 hours off.
What would happen if we change one variable, what if we turned the lights on when the Earth's sun comes up, and turn off the light when the Sun goes down."
A: I don't use lights at all. If I did, they would be for heat, not illumination.

"Should we also provide other things which Mother Nature throws at us Like high wind, Heavy rain fall."
A: No.

[John]

I definitely believe that both play a huge role. For example, it would be a snake's instinctive nature to seek safety and security and therefore it would be in a fight or flight mode when dealing with a monstrous human picking it up. But, most often, with consistent reinforcement of safe and secure handling they may learn and accept the trusted safety of our intrusion. I think it would be our proper goal to seek to "nurture" their "nature" in in the right direction.

[mpgt]

Some wild snakes though, show no resistance to being held, and don't try to escape, while others of the same size and species are the opposite.

[Icicle]

Originally Posted by mpgt

Icicle,
Q: "Who are we to determine why any animal does any thing?"
A: We need to know why they do things if we expect to keep them successfully.

For This I agree with you

"In My Own Opion, we all try to keep temp's and humidity at a constance.
Where as Mother Nature they deal with the four seasons (Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter), When we Keep our reptiles we try to mantaine Summer conditions. If we try to Simulate all the seasons and their conditions reptiles may adopt better."
A: Most of my snakes come from temperate rain forests where there are really only 2 seasons; the rainy season and the dry season. There's not a big temperature variance like we see here.

What about the other reptile that do come from the four seasons?

"I hear most of you say 12 hours of light on and 12 hours off.
What would happen if we change one variable, what if we turned the lights on when the Earth's sun comes up, and turn off the light when the Sun goes down."
A: I don't use lights at all. If I did, they would be for heat, not illumination.

Don't some species require Artifical light to survive?

"Should we also provide other things which Mother Nature throws at us Like high wind, Heavy rain fall."
A: No.

Can you explain more why you feel this way.

[John]

True. So, could it be that each animal possesses the same nature, but just sometimes at different levels? I'm sure that even a snake demonstrating less fear of humans could be nurtured to fear them if consistently exposed to dangerous situations brought about by humans. They definitely have differing personalities expressing different levels of tendency toward the same natural drives. But, these things could be further nurtured or cultivated, either positively or negatively.

[mpgt]

Originally Posted by Icicle

[/I]
For This I agree with you


[/I]
What about the other reptile that do come from the four seasons?
--Maybe

[/I]
Don't some species require Artifical light to survive?
--Lizards??

Can you explain more why you feel this way.

--Again, we'll never begin to replicate the natural environment. If studies prove that extraordinary moisture is called for, we provide it (BRBs). I doubt wind is a factor that brings fulfillment to reptiles. There's not much wind below the rain forest canopy anyway.

You'll have to show me how you break a quote up like that one day.

[Icicle]

Originally Posted by mpgt

You'll have to show me how you break a quote up like that one day.

I will send you a PM on how

[Icicle]

Originally Posted by mpgt

--Again, we'll never begin to replicate the natural environment. If studies prove that extraordinary moisture is called for, we provide it (BRBs). I doubt wind is a factor that brings fulfillment to reptiles. There's not much wind below the rain forest canopy anyway.

I agree we can never replicate the natural environment, but we can try to recreate to a degree.
If we were only talking about one type of snake then I will agree with every thing, But what about those that Hiberate during the winter months. like the garter snakes, bull snakes that come from the NW like Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana where the temps drop in to the freezing stages.

Originally Posted by mpgt

I guess the question here is do you think captive reptiles (or other animals) are more influenced by nature (instinct) or nurture (environment/handling)?

I assumed that this was open to ALL REPTILES. Not just a few

[louise]

100% nurture. i have all the proof i will ever need.

[Brandon28]

I'd like to hear from the veteran breeders on this one.

Is there a noticable difference in temperment between a WC female's first litter and the following generations? As the lineage extends further from WC, does the disposition tend to calm?

Also, with WC specimens, do the defensive adults tend to calm over time?

Do aggressive adults tends to produce aggressive litters?

[RioBravoReptiles]

Originally Posted by louise

100% nurture. i have all the proof i will ever need.

.
That's good enough for me!
.

[mpgt]

Originally Posted by Icicle

I agree we can never replicate the natural environment, but we can try to recreate to a degree.
If we were only talking about one type of snake then I will agree with every thing, But what about those that Hiberate during the winter months. like the garter snakes, bull snakes that come from the NW like Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana where the temps drop in to the freezing stages.

Of course every snake and each individual has its own requirements, though they adapt remarkably well.

I assumed that this was open to ALL REPTILES. Not just a few

...and other animals.

[John]

Originally Posted by louise

100% nurture. i have all the proof i will ever need.

Well, I must say that I have tried every trick in the book to "nurture" a love and appreciation for, as well as a delightful enjoyment of, rats in my male Irian Jaya. He remains, however, fully dedicated to his "nature", or given predisposition, to abhor them.

[razeraze]

I think we need to find out when learning starts in reptiles and see how that changes individuals for instance: Many monitors escape to the trees to avoid large predators on the ground. If every time they did this, a bird pecked at them or tried to eat them you may find the ones attacked in the trees spending more time hiding on the ground.

Very interesting and don't worry behaviorists and psychologists are still arguing this almost 100 years later so we should not hope for an answer here, just good ideas and thoughts.

[Overseer420]

Hi all I just moved from Charleston SC to the Atlanta area. I brought Princess with me. I have had her now for 9 months and that probobly makes her about 15-18months old. I feed her about every 8-10 days and bring her out at least every other day except during her shed or for the 2 days I leave her be after feeding. She is such a sweatheart and has alweays been very curious, likes to explore the immediate surroundings (within 3 feet of me) and seemed to enjoy the short trips out while in Charleston meeting other people. 9I took her out on trips to the store, pet supply, local Pub and my friends. I've done my best to help her be sociable and it seems to be working well. Now since we have moved I can tell she's a bit stressed. when i take her out she wants nothingto do with anything otyher than wrapping around my arm and hand and consitantlystretchs up from my arm to lay her head on my shoulder. It;s not about warmth either as the last time she had been basking abd was very warm. I honestly think she's sharing my stress and also is looking for a bit of comfort as it is harder than usual to get her back in her tank. I feel bad because she needs a bigger enclosure and I have to keep her hidden untill i find a more permanent place down here in GA. She did eat today (kept her on her scedule) but would not take the mouse down untill i sat and watched her begin. yeah, snakes can feel. Louise, if you read this I know you'll definetly understand.

[Monkey]

As a future behaviorist I say both has a role. In nature, a snake that is not defensive will usually not live long, hence natural selection usually creates a more defensive animal. On the other hand, for a lot of snakes we are not dangerous, it's not something that is inherited so they do not always recognize us as a threat either thus we can handle them. As far as what I have known. When it comes to beardies, I truly belive that selective breeding of calm specimen has helped to create the big personality they have. So that is nature together with nurture. I have dealt with dogs that has suffered from such poor breeding that no nurture in the world can help them, thanks to nature wanting to create as strong specimens as possible its rare but I have seen it. I have here a captive born Savannah, his nature tells him I am dangerous, but I can tell that through nurture and non threatening behavior he is slowly accepting that I am not dangerous, is he happy about me touching him, not really. Is he accepting it, to a certain degree.

I belive that nurture in ANY animal can be done, depending a little bit of what nature has given you in the genetics. Esp since reptiles in general has not been domesticated too long. Selective breeding on calmer snakes will likely create even calmer snake that can be even more influenced by nurture.

Science is proving that size of the brain does not have anything to do with the intelligence, it's proven in the san diego zoo that the komodos has distinct personalities and recognize their keepers. The savannah has been recorded to count as high as 6. My beardie LOVES me and I swear to God she got jeallous. I have seen her go fully black ONCE and once only. Herculette has always been a calm beardie, never had a mood swing, very docile, loves to hang out, climb around and explore. One night, I was playing with my bf's kitten, I look over at Herculette, she is staring at me and my normally citrus/orange beardie is BLACK as night. I paniked, I thought she had impaction, was sick or dying. I threw the cat out (I don't trust him around my lizards), and ran to the cage, picked her up, and was prepared to call my ER rep vet.

As soon as I took her out, she started lightening up, two minutes in my hands and she was yellow again. She started running around being herself. I could not figure out what happened. and know this, the cat has jumped on the tank, stared at her before etc and she has never bothered about him never. Then the cat comes in, he jumps up on the bed, she's with me on the couch. All of a sudden she stares at him, she goes darker, she walks over to me, and she crawls up half way on my arm. SNUGGLES in, and really put pressure on my arm, and just glare at the cat. Here is the funny part, she has always climbed around on me, this is the FIRST time EVER she snuggled IN and really nuzzled me. AFter that she climbed up on my chest area, collarbone, neck and laid down there. Looked at the cat and then fell asleep. When she glared at the cat I realised what it was, I paid him attention and not her. I am her resource of food, play, fun, she did not like the idea of sharing that.

Here's the thing, I am trained to NOT put human emotions on animals, I always try to find the scientific info. There was none, she was jeallous, most animals will display jeallosy when worried about loosing their resource to food and things they need for survival. So the jeallousy is not really the same as humans, but I am important to her and she knows this so she saw the cat as a threat. She has grown up with the dog, but not the cat.

However, I still say both has a part in the animal. Nature gives us a blank slate within certain parameters. Some has a wider more adaptable, some has less, if we breed on the more aggressive animals, we get what we breed and vice versa. Which is why I feel its sad that not more people breed nice healthy savannahs that do well in captivity, if they did we would probably get a more domesticated version in rather few generations. Science has shown that change take place rather quickly.