Can behavior traits be selectively bred? V 1.0

[razeraze]

This is version 1 of the debate "Can behavior traits be selectively bred?". This is not a place to insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

Special rules for this thread:
1) As always, please stay on topic. Off topic replies will be removed.
2) Limit small replies like "that was awesome", or "You're wrong". Instead of replying like this, use rep or the "thank you" button.
3) Try your best to back your statement up with scientific fact, or studies you have read or done.
4) DO NOT plagiarize. If you quote someone's findings, please give credit by providing the name, or a link.
5) Before posting, please read the rules of this forum. Debate Forum Rules. EVERYONE READ

This is a debate on behavior which includes all things behavior related including disease, hormones, genetics, organs, brain functions, conditioning, instinct, learned response or any behavior trait that may or may not be affected by selective breeding.

Thank you for your participation.

[mpgt]

I've always felt that temperament was partially genetic. I'd love to hear some input from breeders, as to whether they see inherited disposition traits, or if they selectively breed for temperament.

[BWSmith]

Some animals ARE more predisposed to certain behaviors. We see this with rattlesnakes that are less apt to rattle. These have a greater chance of survival in that those that are obvious by audible warnings around humans are more likely to be killed. Those that are passed by unnoticed survive and breed. So logically, natural selection would favor this trait.

I have also noticed a dramatic decrease in the "aggressiveness" of retics over the last 15 years or so. I remember when it was unheard of to have on that could actually be handled. But as the number of captive generations has grown, we are seen many more docile retics. Afrocks are notorious for their temperament as well, but have been bred in captivity significantly less and most specimens that I come across are still quite nasty. So whether being docile is a genetic trait or predisposition that can be passed on is unclear. This is just an anecdotal observation.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, there is Drymarchon who are notoriously picky feeders as neonates that often take quite a lot of work to get going. I know breeders that have held back the first feeders of each clutch in the hopes that the good feeding response out of the egg was genetic. Thus far, there seems to be no tangible reason why some feed more readily and efforts to promote this trait by selective breeding have proven fairly fruitless.

[Hairless]

New Breed of Fox as Tame as a Pussycat - New York Times

I don't think there is any question that breeding for behavior is being done and has been done for a very long time.

Dogs are a perfect example.
Dogs are bred for behavior. An abusive example is people who breed dogs to fight. They only breed the most aggressive dogs to get more aggressive dogs. In fact a recent raid on a pro football players fighting dog breeding program resulted in some relevant info: They now have dogs so aggressive that a female in heat would rather fight a male wanting to breed than to breed him. The breeders have equipment called "rape stands". This equipment is designed to restrain the female so she can't attack the male during breeding. A simple muzzle wouldn't work because the female would exhaust herself trying to attack the male. Some might argue that this is trained behavior and certainly this is an influence, but the dogs showing the most trainable aggression response produced 'better' dogs for their sick purpose.

The bordie Collie has been selectively bred for behaviors needed to herd sheep by only breeding the best dogs at herding. A good herder doesn't need training. So you could call it instinct and some might argue there is a difference between instinct and behavior. Even so, it is instinct that has a set of behaviors needed for the purpose.

Look at the different behaviors associated with different dog breeds. Genetics have proved all dogs came from wolves. The differences between the various breeds have amazing behavioral differences and they all came from an animal (wolf) which doesn't tame readily. These various behaviors were bred into dog breeds.

Examples with dogs could go on and on...
There are some good university studies (long reads) that further show the results for selective behavior breeding.

[BWSmith]

But the brain size and learning capability of dogs is pretty extraordinary among animals and they have been domesticated for thousands of years. Reptiles have much simpler brains and are less removed from wild counterparts even after years of captive breeding. The conversation really needs to be narrowed to herps. We can't compare dogs and frogs with viable results.

[spix14]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

I have also noticed a dramatic decrease in the "aggressiveness" of retics over the last 15 years or so. I remember when it was unheard of to have on that could actually be handled. But as the number of captive generations has grown, we are seen many more docile retics. Afrocks are notorious for their temperament as well, but have been bred in captivity significantly less and most specimens that I come across are still quite nasty. So whether being docile is a genetic trait or predisposition that can be passed on is unclear. This is just an anecdotal observation.

I think the same thing is being noticed in ETBs and GTPs. I remember all you used to hear was how nasty and aggressive they were, but now that more and more of them are being bred in captivity you see larger and larger numbers of docile, handleable animals popping up.

[mpgt]

True, but it may also be because our knowledge and collective experience has vastly improved, so they're less stressed.

[John]

I don't think we can compare snakes to dogs either. Dogs are highly intelligent and are highly sociable. I really wonder if all recent success with the more notoriously aggressive snakes is more due to husbandry and handling improvements on the part of keepers than genetic breeding endeavors. I know that even in the wild, behavioral response to human contact will vary among reptiles of the same species.

[mpgt]

Originally Posted by faroutinmt

I don't think we can compare snakes to dogs either. Dogs are highly intelligent and are highly sociable. I really wonder if all recent success with the more notoriously aggressive snakes is more due to husbandry and handling improvements on the part of keepers than genetic breeding endeavors. I know that even in the wild, behavioral response to human contact will vary among reptiles of the same species.

True! That's why I think individuals inherit or develop traits early on, that give them a little "personality". We might influence their behavior then, but we might never "tame" a snake that is very defensive. I think it's likely that much of a snake's disposition is inherited from one or both parents.

[Hairless]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

But the brain size and learning capability of dogs is pretty extraordinary among animals and they have been domesticated for thousands of years. Reptiles have much simpler brains and are less removed from wild counterparts even after years of captive breeding. The conversation really needs to be narrowed to herps. We can't compare dogs and frogs with viable results.

I'm not comparing dogs to anything. The topic for debat wasn't limited. It simply asks "can behavior traits be selectively bred?".

[Hairless]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

But the brain size and learning capability of dogs is pretty extraordinary among animals and they have been domesticated for thousands of years. Reptiles have much simpler brains and are less removed from wild counterparts even after years of captive breeding. The conversation really needs to be narrowed to herps. We can't compare dogs and frogs with viable results.

Originally Posted by faroutinmt

I don't think we can compare snakes to dogs either. Dogs are highly intelligent and are highly sociable. I really wonder if all recent success with the more notoriously aggressive snakes is more due to husbandry and handling improvements on the part of keepers than genetic breeding endeavors. I know that even in the wild, behavioral response to human contact will vary among reptiles of the same species.

By the above logic....behaviors are only tied genetically and passed on in the highly intelligent and creatures with large brains. Doesn't seem logical to me. I would say it is easier to see in social animals.

Since I'm now comparing, I would love to hear how one could argue the genes tied to behavior are limited to creatures with "large brains" that are "intellegent".

[John]

Well, I guess my thought is that dogs are in the deeper end of the gene pool. That is, they have alot more traits to work with which can be passed on and varied. Snakes, on the other hand, don't have as much genetic resources to work with.
Dogs are highly instinctive, but have so much capability for personal communicative interaction. They actually crave and seek out emotional interaction with all kinds of animals and humans. These traits just aren't a part of a snake's make up. Of course, other reptiles do have certain measures of these qualities. I'd be really interested to know how much behavior has seemed to be passed on by breeding chameleons, tegus, iguanas and monitors...and bearded dragons.
I guess I only had snakes in mind. I should have specified that.

[razeraze]

We also have to argue (especially in mammals) how much of instinct/emotion is learned?
Fear is a great example;
Watson's Little Albert Study
Also look at when learning may start:
Science for Unborn Human Life | Learning in the Womb

So simply captivly breeding or human interaction could be the reason for these changes in behavior.
I saw a show that proved vision is directly related to a memory of learned objects. If you never seen an apple you could not identify one. It would all mush into a blur of shapes. So if understanding our own vision has to be learned why would we think all living things inherit behavioral traits?
There was an experiment my fiance told me about, where simply observing it changed the results so who knows how much environment affects behavior.

[BWSmith]

If this is going to continue to have no boundaries and include every living thing in the discussion from humans to toads, then it needs its own website not its own thread. Unless some limiting factors are put in place, I see this as a fairly fruitless discussion considering the context of this website. The original question was not very well thought out in my opinion.

I am tapping out of this one because it could turn into a career and has little to do with reptiles thus far.

[razeraze]

Seeing how instinct/ emotions as well as learning is pretty much demonstrated in all animals it should be easy to compare the basics across the animal world.

For instance I trained my exanthematicus in the same Pavlov methods many people use on dogs.

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by razeraze

For instance I trained my exanthematicus in the same Pavlov methods many people use on dogs.

That is not that extraordinary. Varanids and crocodilians have been conditioned for years. The first thing I do with new gators is clicker train them to control feeding responses. But conditioning has nothing to do with behavior as a genetic trait.

[razeraze]

We are talking about base learning or inherited behaviors so it has everything to do with the discussion. I claim all animals regardless of genetics will start learning at an early age and this learning can very well be what makes them more tolerant to humans. If they are born in captivity (young vulnerable and trapped) and learn early on the people changing the water do not want to eat them, then it is conditioning not genetics.

We can add Pavlov conditioning to snakes if it will help prove basic learning spans across the animal world. Snakes can not hear, so you must rely on visual cues. Snake hooks, feeding tongs or a separate food door opening can condition a snake to respond to each of these items based on previous memory of the situation.

[Carinata]

In my experience with bloodred corn snakes I have noticed that of my 7 corns my three corn with diffused or "bloodred" genes tend to be very food aggressive, a bit edgy when it comes to handleing, and over all very curious often watching me move about as where the other corns tend to sit and do nothing but want to eat.

[Snakes Incorporated]

In most species behavior is primitive, primary and instinctive. This could be summed up as being genetic. In time most animals are conditioned and can adapt.
I have heard an argument that due to the Rattlesnake round ups the only snakes that survive are the ones that don’t rattle or cause any unnecessary attention to themselves so this will eventually cause an unintentional selective breeding program.