Should you keep a WC snake? V 1.0

[mpgt]

This is version 1 of the debate "Should you keep a WC snake?". This thread is not a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

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[mpgt]

Let's assume the law allows it. Is it unethical to keep a snake you catch on your property? I'm talking about native wild caught species, not imported.

[_Sam_]

Personally, I don't think I would do it. I'm all for seeing animals in their natural environments and I'd rather just leave them be. I guess the number one reason is that a WC animal isnt necessarily going to eat what you have to offer it.. and i would hate to be responsible for an animal's death or malnutrition because it's not thriving in the envoronment i give it.

[X-Factor]

What about the potential diseases that it could bring in to your collection or what it could contract from yours and spread if you released it?

[owen.richards]

it depends...Like in my emerald tree boas case, he was WC, but if i didnt take him then he would have died, I had to take him to the vet and rehabilitate him myself.

I think it also depends. Some animals are really rare, and there are so few in captivity that if you breed them you will have inbred hillbilly snakes. In a case like that, it is benneficial to import new blood to breed

[jbd123]

WC snake? I dont think so, unless you are simply rehabilitating them. I say if you live there, enjoy them in the wild. Snakes are very savvy creatures, and they can survive in almost any habitat. But if you find them in a dangerous territory, you could save their life by relocating them to a safer area.

But when it comes to turtles, I think it's perfectly OK to keep them as long as you have a VERY large yard (acres of land) with plenty of water, shelter, and grass. I personally believe that if done right you are actually helping to save turtles (such as eastern box turtles), since their numbers are going down due to high development in certain areas. Perhaps you could even let them reproduce and release young turtles into new, safer sanctuaries then where their parents were from to help repopulate in good areas for turtles to live in.

I used to do this when I was VERY young: I had a 5 acre plot with 2 ponds and about 30 box turtles living on it. This was before they became endangered...and now there are laws against this. I still collect box turtles off the road and release them into safer areas...I wish there were 100% safe forests for them to go but unfortunately there are almost none left.

Sorry, got really off topic there: this thread is about snakes...

[RioBravoReptiles]

Originally Posted by mpgt

Let's assume the law allows it. Is it unethical to keep a snake you catch on your property? I'm talking about native wild caught species, not imported.

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My support of the captive reptile iindustry is well-known and un-wavering, as is my dislike of the general commercial trade in wildlife (wild-sourced animals). But... Reptiles, especially common types like Cornsnakes that are widely distributed and prolific, are a resource like any other and should be subject to wise-use and management policies guaranteeing both their preservation and continued use, not prohibitions. Prohibition is not a type of management, it is a philosophical weapon.
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Persons of any level of experience and also with a real interest in the animals should be able to keep a common wild herptile that can be legally taken for private use.. without any stigma attached to it. Everybody starts somewhere. Probably, more people are keeping wild-collected animals acquired through the trade that know it (or would admit it). People fail and succeed daily with captive herps, both wild-collected and captive-produced.
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I don't believe it has been shown or could be proven that any population of animals has ever been extirpated by persons legally taking one or two for their personal use as pets. The problem with the taking of wildlife is when it is taken for COMMERCIAL use or when fragile populations are tageted. The example in this case, a cornsnake, is among the most widespread and prolific of snake species in the world.
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That's what I think about all that.
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[Stargazer]

Personally, I don't understand this human need to collect living things from their natural habitat and put them in cages. Why would we assume they would enjoy being taken from a life they are accustomed to and kept in a confined area for the rest of their lives? The only benefit is for the humans. It is certainly not for the snake. Naturally, in the case of captive bred boas, there is nowhere to release them to and no way to know if they could survive on their own, having been reared in captivity. So the life we give them is probably the best/only life they could have. I wish humans could appreciate the beauty of nature without feeling the need to capture it and "collect" it for our own purposes.

[TammyJamaica]

I am keeping inmy care 5 Jamaican Boas (Yellow Snakes) which I took from a man with a pet shop, he illegally keeps an adult pair at his home and they had babies, which he brought to me ebcause he "can't feed them". I took them because if I had not, they would have died or been sold illegally to some kid and suffered considerably before dying.

I did not give them back to him after I got them all eating (lizards). I said that I was going to release them again to the "wild". That was three years ago and I am still keeping them and feeding them lizards, except for one, Steve, who takes mice/baby rats.

I fully intend to rehabilitate them to the "wild" when they are bigger and have a better chance of survival. I know someone who runs a wildlife refuge on the North Coast here and she has agreed to have them released on that property, which is large and protected, and supports a viable population of these snakes, along with other endangered creatures, already.

I am keeping them "illegally" for their own benefit as they would be killed on sight if seen anywhere here by 95% of our human population. It happens all the time. A few months ago a ten foot one was chopped to death by the locals and proudly displayed in the newspapers.

[razeraze]

Here is another reason for keeping native animals, which is to help rebuild population. We all know the high mortality rate for small reptiles so many people will raise them until a certain size and then let them go. I intended to do this with a gravid mantis but I was in experienced and none survived. How ever now that I know better, I may try again to get mantis populations in this are to grow.

Keeping an animal that belongs outside is wrong in my book unless for rehab or to contribute to species survival.

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by razeraze

Keeping an animal that belongs outside is wrong in my book unless for rehab or to contribute to species survival.

So when will you be sending your animals back to South America, Asia, and Africa? ALL animals “belong” outside. We choose to keep them in captivity for a variety of reasons, most of which are viable reasons. I find your PETA-esque comment to wreak of elitism and hypocrisy considering your captives and the communities you choose to participate in. if that is truly how you feel, then there is no reason for you to be on most of the forums that you frequent other than to preach and get a masturbatory ego lift.

And DON’T take it upon yourself to try reintroduction of any species. You can cause much more damage than good to the animal, the species, and the local ecosystems. You are not qualified to safely and effectively reintroduce specimens.

[RioBravoReptiles]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

So when will you be sending your animals back to South America, Asia, and Africa? ALL animals “belong” outside. We choose to keep them in captivity for a variety of reasons, most of which are viable reasons. I find your PETE-esque comment to wreak of elitism and hypocrisy considering your captives and the communities you choose to participate in. if that is truly how you feel, then there is no reason for you to be on most of the forums that you frequent other than to preach and get a mastrabatory ego lift.

And DON’T take it upon yourself to try reintroduction of any species. You can cause much more damage than good to the animal, the species, and the local ecosystems. You are not qualified to safely and effectively reintroduce specimens.

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Near-Fabulous use of language! and a couple of excelent points to boot!
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[razeraze]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

So when will you be sending your animals back to South America, Asia, and Africa? ALL animals “belong” outside. We choose to keep them in captivity for a variety of reasons, most of which are viable reasons. I find your PETE-esque comment to wreak of elitism and hypocrisy considering your captives and the communities you choose to participate in. if that is truly how you feel, then there is no reason for you to be on most of the forums that you frequent other than to preach and get a mastrabatory ego lift.

And DON’T take it upon yourself to try reintroduction of any species. You can cause much more damage than good to the animal, the species, and the local ecosystems. You are not qualified to safely and effectively reintroduce specimens.

Actually if I lived in their home range they would all be released or part of a breeding project where the babies would be released. Keeping animals you can not release into the wild or work with your local societies and government to set up release projects is just fine in my opinion.

Do not tell me about the damage they can do I would not do it with out first contacting some key members of the CHS, DFWS, USDA and local authorities to be sure all was done legally and for good purpose.

I admire people like Mrcota who can release the reptiles they love such as salvators and reticulatus and that is the example I plan to follow. I would never breed any medium to large reptiles for the pet trade. In fact since I live in Illinois the only breeding project I am considering, is for Macrochelys temminckii so I can release them.

So by all means you do what you want and I will still say keeping a native species for your selfish reasons is cruel. Now again if it benefits the natural population in someway I am all for it. One of the reason I adopt reptiles is because governments will not let them be flown back to their country to be released if it was easy to do I would be doing it.

And I believe it is masturbatory: Excessively self-indulgent or self-involved. I know only an elitist would spell that correctly quick bring the torches.

[spix14]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

So when will you be sending your animals back to South America, Asia, and Africa? ALL animals “belong” outside. We choose to keep them in captivity for a variety of reasons, most of which are viable reasons. I find your PETE-esque comment to wreak of elitism and hypocrisy considering your captives and the communities you choose to participate in. if that is truly how you feel, then there is no reason for you to be on most of the forums that you frequent other than to preach and get a mastrabatory ego lift.

And DON’T take it upon yourself to try reintroduction of any species. You can cause much more damage than good to the animal, the species, and the local ecosystems. You are not qualified to safely and effectively reintroduce specimens.

We can say masturbatory? Good to know, lol.

[telefrag]

if an animal is legally collected and you know you can properly care for it, and your not taking advantage of it (like collecting dozens) then why not.

I have and have had several snakes I collected myself.
Most of them are from herp spots that were destined for destruction, so the only way to physically save a piece of my favorite spots was to keep a few animals I found there.

I caught a adult male coachwhip from a spot that I absolutely loved that is gone now, and he has been with me for many years now.
To this day, has never even struck at me, and started eating in the first week I brought him home.
Anyone who has tried to keep a coachwhip could appreciate that.

plus.. how does anyone think these captive populations started?
if we stuck to only captive bred stock, the gene pools would eventually start to suffer.

[razeraze]

I understand that we all had to get W/C animals to start this wonderful world of keeping reptiles. My problem is the masses. If everyone feels I will just take one garter snake or one bull frog then multiply that by a town like ours (30,000 people) it is easy to see how we can start a crisis. When I was young I brought animals home and thought nothing of it, when my children do it I will have them place the animals back, and if they want a pet they can purchase a pet.

[BWSmith]

I completely agree that CB is always preferable. WC specimens can come with a host of problems. However, I don’t have a problem with most WC specimens as long as the wild populations can handle it and it is done legally. Okay, I have a bit of a problem when animals are harvested by the thousands for the trade like Ball Pythons. But someone keeping a specimen that they caught is of little ecological consequence. I understand what you are trying to illustrate with “one garter snake or one bull frog then multiply that by a town like ours (30,000 people)”, but that seems like an alarmist standpoint without a realistic basis. The percentage of people that keep herps is significantly less than 100%, and the percentage that may find one in the wild that they would want to keep would be even less. The overall impact of collection for private use is somewhere between insignificant and inconsequential. Now there are those dealers that will go out for a weekend and rape the environment of every herp that crosses their path. But that is still of little ecological consequence for non threatened species. It is unethical in my opinion, but of little impact. Habitat destruction and road mortality have a much greater influence on population ecology than the physical removal of specimens ever will.

I think that it is actually important for kids to experience native species. And they will often appreciate them more when they are getting to care for them. I would much prefer my nephew and goddaughter experience and appreciate native herpetofauna than exotics.


Now all that being said and in the sake of fairness, I can think of one instance off the top of my head where an individual made a significant dent in wild populations. That would be Rudy Komarek (I just threw up in my mouth a little just typing his name). This man can be credited with one of the most significant negative impacts on Crotalus horridus populations. His name is synonymous with unethical, illegal, and extensive poaching practices claiming thousands of Rattlesnakes, decimating dens, and impeding research efforts.

Another great topic.

[crocdoc]

One of the things that rarely gets considered in these debates is local extinction. Sure, the odd person collecting a wild herp here and there isn't going to affect the total wild population of a species. Sure, herpers don't make up 100% of the population, so the town of 30,000 isn't going to produce enough herpers to do serious damage by collecting a reptile here and there.

But what if you've got a very large city of several million people, so that even the tiny percentage that are interested in reptiles is like having a whole herping town of 30,000? And what if there are a number of particularly popular herping spots because, as we all know, reptile habitat isn't evenly spread. There are hot spots and not spots. It doesn't take long before you don't see certain herps in those areas any more. Although this doesn't affect the total population in an ecological sense, it certainly ruins a nice outing for a lot of people that like to watch reptiles in the wild, like I do. I should add that this isn't all just a 'what if' situation, it's quite real and I've seen it happen in a few areas, some here and some overseas. Fantastic places where you could see a wide variety of interesting reptiles, but gradually, year after year, fewer and fewer species are seen until eventually you're lucky to see a reptile at all.

There's also the habitat destruction that goes hand in hand with some forms of reptile collection, such as prising rocky crevices open with a crowbar, or opening hollow logs. That collector may only take one or two reptiles, but the habitat destruction may prevent other reptiles from establishing themselves in their place.

Finally, to those people that say they've 'saved' a wild caught reptile by buying it from a pet store in which it had been kept under poor conditions - that's not saving, that's killing more. Your purchase encourages and supports the WC industry, making it profitable for them to collect even more wild caught specimens of the very same species. For every one that makes it to that petstore there is a percentage that die in capture or transit. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind by avoiding those purchases.

[FLVenom]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

I completely agree that CB is always preferable. WC specimens can come with a host of problems. However, I don’t have a problem with most WC specimens as long as the wild populations can handle it and it is done legally. Okay, I have a bit of a problem when animals are harvested by the thousands for the trade like Ball Pythons. But someone keeping a specimen that they caught is of little ecological consequence. I understand what you are trying to illustrate with “one garter snake or one bull frog then multiply that by a town like ours (30,000 people)”, but that seems like an alarmist standpoint without a realistic basis. The percentage of people that keep herps is significantly less than 100%, and the percentage that may find one in the wild that they would want to keep would be even less. The overall impact of collection for private use is somewhere between insignificant and inconsequential. Now there are those dealers that will go out for a weekend and rape the environment of every herp that crosses their path. But that is still of little ecological consequence for non threatened species. It is unethical in my opinion, but of little impact. Habitat destruction and road mortality have a much greater influence on population ecology than the physical removal of specimens ever will.
I think that it is actually important for kids to experience native species. And they will often appreciate them more when they are getting to care for them. I would much prefer my nephew and goddaughter experience and appreciate native herpetofauna than exotics.
Now all that being said and in the sake of fairness, I can think of one instance off the top of my head where an individual made a significant dent in wild populations. That would be Rudy Komarek (I just threw up in my mouth a little just typing his name). This man can be credited with one of the most significant negative impacts on Crotalus horridus populations. His name is synonymous with unethical, illegal, and extensive poaching practices claiming thousands of Rattlesnakes, decimating dens, and impeding research efforts.
Another great topic.

Mr. Smith...Don't I recall a little "poaching" we did in South Georgia last September? That DNR officer thought he had the biggest case ever.
"I know yall are up to no good"
LOL!

[morti]

Originally Posted by crocdoc

One of the things that rarely gets considered in these debates is local extinction. Sure, the odd person collecting a wild herp here and there isn't going to affect the total wild population of a species. Sure, herpers don't make up 100% of the population, so the town of 30,000 isn't going to produce enough herpers to do serious damage by collecting a reptile here and there.
But what if you've got a very large city of several million people, so that even the tiny percentage that are interested in reptiles is like having a whole herping town of 30,000? And what if there are a number of particularly popular herping spots because, as we all know, reptile habitat isn't evenly spread. There are hot spots and not spots. It doesn't take long before you don't see certain herps in those areas any more. Although this doesn't affect the total population in an ecological sense, it certainly ruins a nice outing for a lot of people that like to watch reptiles in the wild, like I do. I should add that this isn't all just a 'what if' situation, it's quite real and I've seen it happen in a few areas, some here and some overseas. Fantastic places where you could see a wide variety of interesting reptiles, but gradually, year after year, fewer and fewer species are seen until eventually you're lucky to see a reptile at all.
There's also the habitat destruction that goes hand in hand with some forms of reptile collection, such as prising rocky crevices open with a crowbar, or opening hollow logs. That collector may only take one or two reptiles, but the habitat destruction may prevent other reptiles from establishing themselves in their place.
Finally, to those people that say they've 'saved' a wild caught reptile by buying it from a pet store in which it had been kept under poor conditions - that's not saving, that's killing more. Your purchase encourages and supports the WC industry, making it profitable for them to collect even more wild caught specimens of the very same species. For every one that makes it to that petstore there is a percentage that die in capture or transit. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind by avoiding those purchases.

I agree with you fully to some extent. I am sure, however, that you have experienced some of the same treatment of reptiles that I have from "The Locals". I am afraid that, compared to a redneck with a shotgun, I have done practically no damage to local wildlife.

Better still, through using locally collected wildlife in educational presentations, I know for a fact that countless animals have been saved.

I submit to you the following proof... a God's Honest backwoods Kentucky home owner interacting with a live venomous snake on a stick on his own property... and he was perfectly ok with us putting them back where we got them from.