Can reptiles be tamed? V 1.0

[mpgt]

This is version 1 of the debate "Can reptiles be tamed?". This thread is not a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

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[mpgt]

This has always troubled me a little. Everyone will have their own meaning for the word "tame". That complicates this debate, but may be the heart of the matter, in the end. I think that within a species, each individual has a disposition (or personality, if you will) influenced by heredity and environment/conditioning. The animal's basic disposition may limit your ability to calm it down beyond a certain point. Others will be more pliable. Then there are some that are calm and easy to handle, even in the wild. Does that make them tame? I guess in the most basic sense, it does. Such an animal may well be more tame than the neighbor's cat or dog...or kid.

So I guess my feeling is that some can be considered "tame". I don't see why some people have the notion that they should always be considered wild animals. How many generations of captive breeding would it take to consider them "domestic" or "not wild" animals?

[mpgt]

Oh here's something else interesting. Rattlesnake roundups remove and kill individuals that give a warning rattle. The ones that don't get caught and killed, are the few that are slow to rattle. They're starting to find rattlers in such areas that will not rattle, no matter how much they're provoked. I think this demonstrates how genetics affects disposition or in this case, displayed defensive behavior.

It also makes me think that selective captive breeding of reptiles for disposition, could yield offspring that are easier to handle. I'm not saying I'd support this. I'm just wondering.

[razeraze]

Originally Posted by mpgt

Oh here's something else interesting. Rattlesnake roundups remove and kill individuals that give a warning rattle. The ones that don't get caught and killed, are the few that are slow to rattle. They're starting to find rattlers in such areas that will not rattle, no matter how much they're provoked. I think this demonstrates how genetics affects disposition or in this case, displayed defensive behavior.

It also makes me think that selective captive breeding of reptiles for disposition, could yield offspring that are easier to handle. I'm not saying I'd support this. I'm just wondering.

Do you have evidence of this? I heard it was a genetic defect that a small percentage of rattlesnakes are born with out a rattle. This means they can not warn off enemies and have to resort to biting.

Tame is a strange word I guess I use "well behaved" more than tame. I have seen plenty people bitten by "tame" domestic animals.

[mpgt]

Saw it on TV, Tom. I'll try to look it up. No, they had full rattles but the natural selection theory has profited those that don't use the rattles. Researchers actually picked them up with a hook, and got very little if any rattle.

[nicolenadia]

I believe, and this is just my oppinion, that the rattler's decline in "rattle", is evolutionary, caused by many years of roundups. I just feel that animals eventually evolve so they can continue acclimating with their environments. I do beleive that they are smart enough to know when they are in danger, and what they can do, over time, to escape that danger. I don't have any science to back that up.....just what I've read of Darwin.

[jtmoney]

My opinion on the matter is this: Domestic animals grave attention (dogs and cats) therefore I consider them actually tame. Reptiles ALLOW you to handle them, they do not need any attention. Its not like a dog which if you ignore will bark and howl at you for attention. If you left a reptile alone, without any unneeded attention, they would be perfectly happy.

[mpgt]

Originally Posted by razeraze

Do you have evidence of this? I heard it was a genetic defect that a small percentage of rattlesnakes are born with out a rattle. This means they can not warn off enemies and have to resort to biting.
Tame is a strange word I guess I use "well behaved" more than tame. I have seen plenty people bitten by "tame" domestic animals.

Here's the first link I found. I don't have any books on the subject. ABC News: L.A.'s Rattlesnake Wrangler

[razeraze]

Has anyone seen a feral cat or dog? They do not crave attention and can be quite nasty.

[BWSmith]

Some of the Rattlesnake posts remind me of one of my favorite quotes:
Attitude, rather than disposition, is more definitive of serpent behavior. From the moment they emerge into this world until they complete their life cycle, their attitude is, "Don't tread on me. I am well prepared to defend myself, but content to pass through life unnoticed. I mean no harm to anything or anyone that our creator has not proved as my bill of fare. I am self-sustaining, and I like it that way. Please pass me by." -Bill Haast

I tend to think of snakes as "docile or defensive" rather than "aggressive or tame".

A reptile's world is composed of 3 primary categories; prey, threats, and mates. If the snake does not perceive us as one of these, it is fairly indifferent to our existence. If it can't eat you, beat you, or hump you, you are just a warm part of the landscape to it.

[ChadRamsey]

Originally Posted by mpgt

Saw it on TV, Tom. I'll try to look it up. No, they had full rattles but the natural selection theory has profited those that don't use the rattles. Researchers actually picked them up with a hook, and got very little if any rattle.

i saw the same show! i was amazed as well.

[boaterr]

Originally Posted by mpgt

Oh here's something else interesting. Rattlesnake roundups remove and kill individuals that give a warning rattle. The ones that don't get caught and killed, are the few that are slow to rattle. They're starting to find rattlers in such areas that will not rattle, no matter how much they're provoked. I think this demonstrates how genetics affects disposition or in this case, displayed defensive behavior.

It also makes me think that selective captive breeding of reptiles for disposition, could yield offspring that are easier to handle. I'm not saying I'd support this. I'm just wondering.

I believe that selective captive breeding of reptiles for disposition is not just a thought but has some facts behind it. While Talking to Ben Renick a while ago he commented that often baby anacondas seem to inherit their parents disposition. I know Kelly Haler produces very special green anacondas (very tame and great eaters).

[BWSmith]

In reference to rattlesnakes not rattling so readily, I have noticed that wild specimens will often lay silent until they are touched. Even then, the first response is flight, rather than fight. But by the same token, you still get some that will rattle if the wind blows. However, it is a commonly held truth that natural selection favors those that don't rattle even though this hypothesis is virtually impossible to qualify with research.

I will however mention that I doubt that defensive activity has very much to do with which specimens find their end at roundups. The "hunters" are not just going out looking for snakes, they hit the hibernaculums. Most of the snakes in the roundups were gassed out of the hibernaculums so their defensive behavior is not a factor in their capture.

[jbd123]

No.

I love my snakes, and sometimes I think they "love" me back, but not in a tamed sort of way...
I think that a reptile can be conditioned, to a point, to understand what is and isn't food/foe. But I don't think that a reptile can express emotions to their owner on a level that is "tame". They will always have a wild side to them no matter how "tame" they are.

My snakes are nice to me, mainly because it is their nature to do so. They aren't aggressive, even in the wild.

[nicolenadia]

National Geographic did a show called, "The Science of dogs". They compared domestic dogs vs. wolves being raised in a scientific sanctuary. The level of attention desired was very minimal on the wolves side, and very high on the domestic dog side. They did a test. They put a piece of meat in a wire dog crate and locked the door. The wolf tried for a very long time to get the meat, and when he realized he had failed, he laid down and gave up, and then tried again. The domestic dog tried a few times, and then realizing failure, turned to the human for help. It was pretty interesting.

[majkill]

Ok i have an interesting question - more to do with behaviour tho.

So why is it that MOST venomous species are highly defensive and will most certainly strike at you if picked up, while its the more docile 'harmless' species (not all just some) that seem to accept handling and not appear defensive?

Now this is from what i've observed from television, so could it be that the ones that appear calm were captive bred and 'planted' on site just to fill the show so-to-speak? Or are some snakes naturally tolerant of this?

I find it a bit fishy that a WC snake would just be picked up without a fight seeing as it can't know wether the person picking it up is a predator or not...

[mpgt]

Originally Posted by majkill

Ok i have an interesting question - more to do with behaviour tho.
So why is it that MOST venomous species are highly defensive and will most certainly strike at you if picked up, while its the more docile 'harmless' species (not all just some) that seem to accept handling and not appear defensive?
Now this is from what i've observed from television, so could it be that the ones that appear calm were captive bred and 'planted' on site just to fill the show so-to-speak? Or are some snakes naturally tolerant of this?
I find it a bit fishy that a WC snake would just be picked up without a fight seeing as it can't know wether the person picking it up is a predator or not...

I've often wondered how quick to bite, venomous snakes really are. Since handling is really out of the question, we'll never really know.

You may just have to see it to believe it, but I spent 3 years in Panama. It was incredible, but I found boas (several BCIs and an annulated tree boa) that made no effort at escape or defense, not even a hiss when held. Some, even the same type of snake, on the other hand, were very defensive.

[nicolenadia]

I think the word "Tame" is relative. In my opinion, the term, "Don't bite the hand that feeds", holds some truth; in my experiences. I would never say that my animals are "tame", in the true sense of of the word. I would rather classify my reptiles as conditioned. They get food from me, thus there is no reason to "bite the hand that feeds". They are conditioned to me and the environment I have placed them in, and as captive bred animals, know no life elsewhere. Its hard to explain, but hopefully you understand what I am getting at. Perhaps they are so used to me, that they feel safe. Biting is usually a means to kill prey and to defend. My animals could be so used to the schedule and seeing me every day that they feel at ease. I totally feel that repetition has its benefits.

[crocdoc]

Originally Posted by majkill

why is it that MOST venomous species are highly defensive and will most certainly strike at you if picked up, while its the more docile 'harmless' species (not all just some) that seem to accept handling and not appear defensive?
Now this is from what i've observed from television, so could it be that the ones that appear calm were captive bred and 'planted' on site just to fill the show so-to-speak? Or are some snakes naturally tolerant of this?
I find it a bit fishy that a WC snake would just be picked up without a fight seeing as it can't know wether the person picking it up is a predator or not...

I haven't noticed a venomous/non-venomous trend in the defensive behaviour of wild snakes. I have noticed species differences within both groups, subspecies differences within the same species, individual differences within the same subspecies or even day to day differences within the same individual, depending on how the human it is defending itself against behaves. Some species are, in general, more inclined to be 'bitey' than others, though, and not necessarily venomous.
Television 'documentaries' can be deceptive. It's often not feasible to have an expensive camera crew wandering around aimlessly until someone is lucky enough to find a snake (unless, of course, you're filming them at predictable places and times, such as denning sites at the right time in spring), so sometimes captive snakes are used to simulate whatever it is they are trying to demonstrate. This doesn't mean the documentaries are wrong or inaccurate, for that doesn't change whatever factual content they're trying to get across (which may, in its own right, be wrong or inaccurate, however).
A good thing to do when watching documentaries is ask yourself "who is filming this?" We humans have a tendency to accept the 'fly on the wall' view of events without remembering that someone is actually filming the scene. A good example to illustrate this point was one of the two or three 'croc hunter' episodes I ever watched (yes, I know he was a hero to many but I personally couldn't stomach the shows) in which Terri ran up a tree to 'catch' a black-headed python. As this was all filmed from above, I couldn't understand why she went through all of that trouble when the cameraman could have just handed her the snake. After all, he was in the top of the tree before she started climbing up there and he put the snake there in the first place, for everyone knows black-headed pythons don't go up trees on their own (okay, I'm being a bit ironic here, for I do really know why the cameraman didn't hand her the snake - it was all part of the drama of the shot having her climb up after it.)
Wow, did I ever go off topic.

[razeraze]

Dave as always your insight is always some of the most valuable information on the web.