Is IBD Real or a myth? - Debate v1.0

[Conners]

Originally Posted by The Rules

This is version 1 of the debate "Is IBD Real or a Myth?". What this thread is not is a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

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The following account might be of interest to fellow boa keepers.

Last month I had a 4 year old BCI male suddenly exhibit "classic" IBD symptoms. I'd had him for four months. His previous owners had kept him on his own for a year, so I wasn't particularly afraid of IBD, which I'd anyway never experienced. Nevertheless, he was quarantined for the first seven weeks and was then introduced to my big female, whom he spent pretty much the whole of December, January and February courting.

He finally lost interest and she went into a P.O.V., and at this time he was hooked out and placed on his own. He'd eaten sporadically over the previous months, but clearly had other things on his mind. His weight had held up however, so I wasn't at all concerned. But when I offered him food for the first time after this, something was clearly up. He'd snatch it and there would follow the most inept attempt at constriction possible. Finally he'd drop the item, and start the process over again. This seemed like it was exhausting for him, so I called time on it.

The next day he went rapidly downhill: out of nowhere he started stargazing badly, looping round on himself. When I took him out he was hopelessly uncoordinated.

It seemed like textbook IBD, which was of great concern to me as the female he'd been mating is a much loved pet. The vet examined him the next day, by which time he was even worse, and we decided, sadly, to euthanize him.

I didn't want to spent the next 9 months wondering whether my female and her potential litter were harbouring IBD, and I also wanted to know that we'd done the right thing, so I asked for full pathology on him.

The initial PM revealed no inclusion bodies in any organs. This was unexpected and gave me cause for optimism, although it did make me wonder if we'd been too quick to have him put down. Last week I got the hystopathology report back, and it confirmed no signs of IBD. Instead he had numerous other things wrong with him, including advanced brain necrosis and a wrecked liver. He must have been a dead snake sliding from some time before I got him.

For me this was the best possible news, because it vindicated the decision to euthanize him but also suggested my female might escape any infection.

It was a salient lesson, because I'd been taught that neurological disorders in boas = IBD. I now think that this is a dangerous way of thinking, because it can lead keepers to panic as I did. In fact, a whole range of disorders can result in the kind of symptoms associated with IBD. It might even be that IBD is a fairly unlikely diagnosis for a stargazing boa. This is just speculation on my part, because I can't draw conclusions from one case, but I have heard similar anecdotal reports from other keepers.

There is also the question of the advice meted out to keepers who do have an animal infected with IBD. Numerous sources on the Web suggested I dispose of every vivarium and start afresh: one even recommended euthanizing the entire collection to spare the other animals the pain of guaranteed IBD.

In fact, if IBD is a retrovirus as believed, it cannot survive well outside the body. The only means by which it can reliably be spread are sexual transmission and external parsites. The latter is the only way I can imagine a blood-borne retrovirus being passed between animals housed separately and never put in the same cage.

I'm not a health professional, but my impression of IBD was that it was this terrible "boa AIDS" that ravaged whole collections, and that if your animal is stargazing, the diagnosis is 99% likely to be IBD.

As a result of my own experience and the other reports I gathered as a result, I am now much more sceptical about the prevalence of the condition.

I don't myself want to be guilty of spreading misinformation on the basis of limited data, so I'd be keen to hear what other keepers think.

Thanks for reading,

Conners

[Conners]

Originally Posted by natas

Mods, can you please move this to the debate section? (I am about to take off)

Actually I just read BWSmith's account of his experiences, and it made me feel a bit chastened about the title of this thread. Perhaps a mod could change it to something less provocative?
By all means move to debate: I am just trying to encourage discussion and am happy to hear contrary views.

[BWSmith]

Unfortunately not all that much is known about IBD. But if there is suspected IBD, a liver biopsy is about the only reliable way to determine the cause. One animal exhibiting IBD like behavior is cause for concern and precaution, but not panic. But if multiple animals exhibit the behavior, then it is time for serious diagnostic action.

[BWSmith]

One thing that popped into my head that causes IBD like symptoms is Permethrin toxicity (Provent A Mite). As safe as Permethrin is, it is a still a powerful pesticide.

[Conners]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

Unfortunately not all that much is known about IBD. But if there is suspected IBD, a liver biopsy is about the only reliable way to determine the cause. One animal exhibiting IBD like behavior is cause for concern and precaution, but not panic. But if multiple animals exhibit the behavior, then it is time for serious diagnostic action.

I think this is the thing: if not that much is known about the condition, it can give rise to unreliable speculation on the subject, and I'd come across some of that when talking to people. Combine that with finding out that my boa hadn't been suffering from IBD, and it started me wondering if the condition was less prevalent than some people, myself especially believed.

I appreciate that my original post might seem insensitive to those people who've been hit by IBD - please accept my apologies for this. I am obviously rubbish at using the Web-site's search feature as I did a search for IBD before posting and didn't get anything. Next time, after I submitted my post, I searched again and got a whole load of threads.

[BWSmith]

I believe that it is much more prevalent than people WANT to believe, but there are other causes of similar symptoms. And it is difficult not to be an alarmist when it is your own animals. But when it comes to quarantine and diagnostic testing, it is better err on the side of caution and treat any unexplained death as a worst case scenario until shown otherwise.

[Conners]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

One thing that popped into my head that causes IBD like symptoms is Permethrin toxicity (Provent A Mite). As safe as Permethrin is, it is a still a powerful pesticide.

I wondered about toxicity actually, although I haven't used an anti-mite treatment in years. For about 10 years I scaled my involvement in the hobby right down, and just kept the one female boa. In the years since I started adding to the collection again I've bought neonates only (apart from the male BCI), and been fortunate to stay mite free.

The disinfectant I use for the vivs is a special reptile formula product that doesn't contain phenols, so hopefully that's not a factor.

The snake in question had a scar on the top of his head from when a former owner, from whom he was rescued, had offered him live prey that had gnawed him. I wonder if he could have received an infection that eventually led to the brain necrosis?

But chiefly, what I am wondering is whether stargazing has become synomymous with IBD in the minds of keepers, and if lots of unwell animals are being labelled as victims of IBD in lieu of a full diagnosis.

[BWSmith]

A few things can cause star gazing. I would not be worried about IBD until it cannot right itself, starts regurging, or retains sheds as these are symptoms more in line with IBD with fewer causes. The combination of any two would be cause for concern.

[X-Factor]

Brief aside: I have much enjoyed reading this thread...Conner, well done. Near impeccable spelling and grammer combined with a great subject for discussion and a good analytical mind = excellent read.

[Conners]

Originally Posted by X-Factor

Brief aside: I have much enjoyed reading this thread...Conner, well done. Near impeccable spelling and grammer combined with a great subject for discussion and a good analytical mind = excellent read.

Thanks for your kind words, X-Factor.

I was reading that de Vosjoli boa book last night: he covers IBD extensively. He reports cases of animals postive for IBD that remain asymptomatic for several years and counting. In that case this is a far more complex situation than I had imagined.

[majkill]

I came across these videos on you tube where it is claimed that their snake has contracted IBD. One can't be certain that these claims are true but opinions are welcome...


Snake with no apparent co-ordination:
YouTube - Inclusion Body Disease (in a red tail boa)

Snake that appears to be contracting every muscle in its body:
YouTube - What's wrong

Some lack of co-ordination:
YouTube - What's wrong