Correct Cage Temperatures Debate V 1.0

[morti]

This is version 1 of the debate "Correct Cage Temperatures". What this thread is not is a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

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[razeraze]

Has anyone researched the climates and surface temperatures of their charges be they snakes, lizards, turtles or crocodilians?
Many people believe we can not set up a mutual environment or habitat where all these reptiles will thrive. Many believe because reptiles breed in captivity we must be providing them their optimal habitats, which is not always the case. I also feel because this has been done for so long many people are afraid to give their charges options. I find snake people are the hardest to convince.
Here is some simple proof and perhaps someone in Florida can go herping and temp gun these animals in the wild as well as record air temps, humidity and uvb microwatts.
Python molurus bivittatus (Burmese python) Near water, south east asia’s rainforest 82.4F average ambient 75% humidity
Iguana iguana (Green iguana)
Tropical rainforest of south and central America 80F average ambient 80-100% humidity
Alligator mississippiensis (American alligator) swamps of northern america 80F average ambient temperature 80-100% humidity
Varanus niloticus (nile monitor) Grass lands to rainforest of Africa 84F average ambient temperature 60-90% humidity
All of these animals are thriving in Florida though it is not there natural habitat. Why because the habitat is so similar. If a rainforest or swamp is averaging 80F air temps, the ground can easily be in the 100'sF and spots in the sun can be 130+F. Constant heat will make surfaces stay hot even when the sun goes down. Perhaps people in Africa and Thailand can answer also.

[morti]

Here in Kentucky, throughout the entire month of Sepetember, it was between 90-100 degrees every day. Surface temps could get a staggering 150 - 160 degrees. We got less than an inch of rain in September.

Would you reccomend these conditions to keep, say, a corn snake or a king snake in? Why or why not?

I can tell you from my personal field experience that when we went out twice in September looking for baby rattlesnakes that should have been newly born, we found nothing. Not a single snake present in areas that always produce snakes for us. Why is this?

When conditions in the wild get extreme (hot, cold, dry, wet) the snakes seek shelter. Many go underground. They emerge and are active when conditions improve... be that at night, after a rain, what have you.

Here in Kentucky, during the summer, if you go out mid day there is one species of snake you are likely to find: Black racers. They pretty much have the hottest part of the day to themselves. You will, however, find all manner of lizards. Fence swifts, 5 lined skinks, etc. The snakes are seeking shelter from the heat, the animals that are built for it are seeking the heat.

As a good example, here are the monthly temperature averages for Barranquilla, Colombia (where the boas come from):

Average Weather for Barranquilla, * - Temperature and Precipitation

Highs: 88-92
Lows: 74-76

Same thing for Iquitos, Peru:
Average Weather for Iquitos, * - Temperature and Precipitation

Highs: 86 - 89
Lows: 69 - 71

This is where they live.

One more thing to add... Boas are primarily nocturnal and crepuscular. They are not active during the hottest part of the day. They seek shelter from it in fact.

So armed with this knowledge of boas, their habits, and their habitat, why would I want to provide temperatures of 100+ degrees to a boa?

[natas]

I have observed the same exact thing as Morti here in Texas. This year was a mild year compared to last year...so I have seen plenty of reptiles out during the day. Last year was a different story. In the peak of Summer I did not encounter one reptile during the day unless I went looking under logs or other "covered areas". The only time I saw reptiles out in the open last year was at sundown.

In a cage, we are forcing a reptile a temperature range. This means that no matter how uncomfortable the animal is he/she is forced to take it. If we start forcing a to high temperature then we throw all sorts of stress on the reptile. To low of a temp will cause the reptile to go into a different state...sometimes in a hibernation state.

I have no idea if anyone has done actual data collecting on averages temps that reptiles occupy for every type of reptile...but that would be a better test then taking ambient average temps of the surrounding area. Just because we have corn snakes here in Texas with temps over 100 degrees and surface temps even higher does not mean that animal hangs out in the direct sun.

[RioBravoReptiles]

The most frequent mistake people make setting up reptile cages is trying to heat or cool the environment to one specific temperature. The optimum way to do it is to have available in the cage temperatures close to the very highest temperature tolerable and also the minimum temperature. That way the reptile chooses what temperature it needs or wants for the condition and period it is in. This goes also for those that hibernate or brumate or cycle their animals. The range supplied is higher in Summer and lowest in Winter.
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The second biggest mistake related to temperature problems or stress with many herps is using caging that is too small and or a heat-source that's too big. The problems with that are obvious.
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With boas and most snakes an important rule to consider is also that whenever possible indirect heating is best. This is more like how these animals gain (and shed) heat in nature.
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In Summer I supply boas with a hot spot of between 90-95 degrees farenheit and the cool side of the cage is near 80 degrees. In Winter the hot spot is no more than about 85 and the cool side may be down to 70 for most boas. And the total heating hours each day in Summer is more than for the same animal in winter.
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Temperature tables are like feeding schedules.. only a base-line starting point. You have to observe your animals in the environment you supply and apply what you learn to acheive the best care and conditions.
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That's my input on that.

[razeraze]

Simple because cooler parts of the days basking surfaces can still be well over 100F They will not use them if it does not serve a purpose. Hence why I keep my snakes cooler than my lizards but still provide the temps they would run into during their activity. Burmese pythons, african rocks can be found during the day as can retics, even on hot days just usually never sitting on a stone like a monitor would. Again this is why my monitor's surface temps are 30-50F higher than my snakes because their behavior suggest they need that heat, as with snakes their behavior (the ones I keep and research) show them to be nocturnal and avoid severely hotspots like 130F but they will use hot spots in the low 100'sF

Since I do not know anything about king or corn snakes or even rattlesnakes I can only comment on the animals I research. I can tell you when the sun goes down and the rattlesnakes all go onto the blacktop at night, I bet that blacktop is over 95F or 100F Morti if you have a temp gun, check on what surfaces you find these animals.

Gus well said, Well said. I think if you can provide these cooler and hotters in the same cage the snake will thermo regulate like it is supposed to. Keeping it just in the middle does not give the snake an option. I have noticed when a snake has a huge meal or does not feel well it will seek out hotter spots most likely to act as a fever or speed up digestion. The winter idea is a great idea Gus but I am not sure I can do that easily. I do have spots in the cages in the mid 70's during winter time, just because that is how my cages are set up.

[morti]

Since I do not know anything about king or corn snakes or even rattlesnakes I can only comment on the animals I research. I can tell you when the sun goes down and the rattlesnakes all go onto the blacktop at night, I bet that blacktop is over 95F or 100F Morti if you have a temp gun, check on what surfaces you find these animals.

Been there, done that. Generally I find more snakes on surfaces in the high 80s to low 90s than any other temps.

And yes.. I provide a temperature gradient that changes at different times in the year. I feel that a 10 degree gradient is more than sufficient to allow your average tropical snake to thermoregulate.

I hold to the position that our goal as reptile keepers is NOT to attempt to emulate nature, but rather to provide an ideal environment for the animals in our care. To truly emulate nature, we would have to emulate prey/predator relationships, weather dynamics, flora, disasters, drought, etc etc. Not only is this close to impossible, it is not the most beneficial strategy to our pets. Not only should we try to research our reptile's natural environment, we should try to research their ideal care.

So when I tell people that Colombian boas should be kept on a temperature gradient with ambient temps of 78 - 88 and a basking spot no hotter than 93 - 95 degrees, I am not trying to tell them that this is how they live in nature... I am trying to tell them that this is the temperature range that many many keepers, myself included, have found works best to keep their snakes healthy in captivity.

To your point that if the snake chooses to utilize extreme high temperatures, it must not be bad for them, I wish I had a nickel for every post I have seen of someone who used hot rocks for heating with severely burned snakes. They go home one day to find their cute little ball python clutching that hot rock like it was their life line with 3rd degree burns all over them. Reptiles really aren't very smart. I would prefer NOT to provide something dangerous to my snake and then hope that they won't hurt themselves with it.

[razeraze]

I know a guy who uses multiple hot rocks with his anacondas and burm. They are not on regulators and he has never had a burn because the cage is huge and air temps are proper enough that the snake does not try to rapidly heat itself while parts of it remain cool. This goes back to setting a cage up correctly. If you are going to provide them with options you must do it right. 10F is a terrible gradient. Just because people keep their snakes like that does not mean others who provide a natural gradient are doing it wrong.
I have seen monitors with burns and asked why? and I get the same answers, too cool cage and too small of a hotspot. The entire animal needs to get warm not one spot.
Providing a cool spot and a hot spot with a 30-40F gradient is just like they would come in contact in the wild and you would be surprised how many reptiles make use of this. You do not need a predator prey relationship to have a healthy animal, but bacteria, temp changes and exercise can really help boost an immune system, and keep snakes in ideal health.
Again, if these animals evolved to live in certain temp gradients, why would we not replicate it? We maybe cutting them short because they are stuck in cages with little to no fluctuation . Because you keep your animals a certain way does not mean others who recommend different advice is wrong and they should not be treated as so, especially when they have proof that supports their husbandry.
This is not a post about, I keep mine this way or that way because it has been done for years, this is a post about which ways keepers keep reptiles and what we can learn from it. Even zoos and rescues understand enough to know nature does it best and we should mimic that. A great herpetologist opened my eyes when he explained how to make a fake termite mound and has produced an insane amount of lace monitors. He went outside and measured the temperature and humidity and replicated it. Just like I am suggesting we all do.
You say you find most snakes basking in the low 90's and high 80's? again I ask you to explain this

Maybe you see snakes using the spots you mention because that is all that is available. Break out the temp gun and prove me wrong

[morti]

Maybe you see snakes using the spots you mention because that is all that is available. Break out the temp gun and prove me wrong

If you read the context of what I said when I said I see snakes in high 80's to low 90's I was refering to wild snakes. Read the section that I quoted of yours and then read what I typed.

Incidentally, did you click the links in my first post or even read the averages that I typed about the climate where boas actually come from? There is a total of a 14 degree low temp to high temp gradient in Barranquilla. Why (oh why) would I want to provide a snake that comes from an area with high temperatures ranging from 88 - 92 with a hot spot of 100+ degrees as you have suggested?

Nocturnal: Active at night.

Does it get warmer or cooler at night?

[razeraze]

Are you talking surface temps or air? Currently it is 83F air temperature in woodridge, I took a little trip to the forest preserve behind my apartment complex and took various surface readings. The forest floor ranged from 75F -102F, ant holes were 97F so burrowing may not be the best option. Tree branches ranged from 80-95F and downed logs and leaf litter ranged from 80-100F as did the various rocks and rock patches. If there are any reptiles living there (and I know there are) They are exposed to these temperatures and today is not very hot. Giving them these temperatures will make them find the spots they like for what ever mood they are in or what ever their bodies need.

[morti]

I took a little trip to the forest preserve behind my apartment complex and took various surface readings.

Did you find snakes at all of these temperatures?

[morti]

Because you keep your animals a certain way does not mean others who recommend different advice is wrong and they should not be treated as so, especially when they have proof that supports their husbandry.

What proof do you have that Boa constrictors should be provided with high temperatures above 100 degrees?

[razeraze]

Truthfully I did not look. But I know unless the snakes can hover in the air or dig 3 feet down they are on one of these surfaces. I have never been interested in Illinois reptiles so I do not go looking for them, but if this is the only way for me to prove to you, I guess I will have to plan a rock flipping log turning trip, armed with my temp gun and solar meter

Simple, boas live in the rain forest as I explained earlier where temperatures match Illinois today but the humidity is far higher. So you would have to be a fool to think they are never on a surface over 100F which is not even a hot day in a rain forest. How ever Michael has recorded retics out when air temperatures were 91.4F so surface temperatures would be far higher. I do not think the retics hovered above the ground while looking for food or a cool spot. (Michael I am sorry for posting your observation I was hoping you would chime in, but thank you for giving it to me. I would love for you to write some more of your field herping temps especially for snakes as they are the only reptiles kept differently.)

[morti]

Good deal. I am interested in the herps that you have there, so I already know the answer.

I know (from research and experience) what the "Ideal Temperatures" are for the snakes I keep. That is why I keep them at those temperatures. That is why I don't provide them with temperatures that are radically different than those temperatures. It is a waste of heat and a potentially dangerous situation to provide a boa constrictor with temperatures over 100 degrees. I keep the air temps between 78 - 88 on a gradient with surface temps never exceeding 93 - 95 degrees. Anything higher is both a waste of heat and potentially dangerous.

[razeraze]

I edited my last post after I saw your other question.

Changing a basking spot from 90-100F is as easy as raising a shelf, you do not need to add anymore heat, or you will change the ambient temps.

[morti]

More documentation from people smarter than me:

VPI - Common Boa constrictors Information and Care, Dave and Tracy Barker.

-Temperatures: As a general starting point, common boa constrictors seem to do best if kept in the low-to-mid-80s degrees F. In fact, it's a good maintenance practice to provide a warmer-than ambient basking spot for boas. This will allow the individual to choose the temperature that best suits at any given time.

Boas like to bask under warm lights or ceramic bulbs. Likewise, they will sit on a warm area of substrate, heated from below with some type of heating pad. Electrically-heated rocks can be very dangerous to boas, as occasionally the surface temperature of some of these hot rocks may exceed 130-140 degrees F and they can cause severe burns on the bellies of unsuspecting boas.

As is true for many snakes, boas can better tolerate temperature extremes if they do not have food in their digestive system. If recently fed, they should not be subjected to temperatures more than 90 degrees F or below 74 degrees F. When empty of food, common boa constrictors are tolerant of a wider range of temperatures.

Common Boa Constrictors, Information and Care | Vida Preciosa International, Inc.

NERD - Kevn McCurley

Provide your boa constrictor with a basking spot of 88-90°F and an ambient (background) temperature of 78-80 °F. The ambient temperature should not fall below 75 °F.

New England Reptile Distributors, designer Ball Pythons, Reticulated Pythons, and much more!

[morti]

Originally Posted by razeraze

I edited my last post after I saw your other question.

Changing a basking spot from 90-100F is as easy as raising a shelf, you do not need to add anymore heat, or you will change the ambient temps.

I heat my cages with heat tape. Changing shelves is not going to change any sort of temperatures.

If you do use overhead heating and you provide a shelf that gets over 100 degrees, you are providing a potentially dangerous area of your enclosure to your snake. Since I refuse to provide anything dangerous to my snakes, I won't do it.

[razeraze]

Again you are taking observations of captivity. I showed you a pic of a boa with food in her belly on a spot over 90F guess what she is fine and has done this for years. Hot rocks, again these would be a great spot for a diurnal lizard small enough to fit it's whole body on the rock. Or even a diurnal snake that can fit it's whole body on the entire rock. Hence the 30 degree difference in cage surface temps between my snakes (nocturnal) and my lizards(diurnal). Now I have posted proof not from a facility or basement but from Thailand and my own backyard. I have also provided proof from captivity with my own pictures. Again what more do I have to do? Yes I am not one of your reptile breeders but I do not get my info from them either, I go to zoos, rescues and field researchers cause despite what we do in our homes they evolved to live in specific habitats which some people do not even research. Instead they find a popular breeder and just blindly listen.

[razeraze]

Originally Posted by morti

I heat my cages with heat tape. Changing shelves is not going to change any sort of temperatures.
If you do use overhead heating and you provide a shelf that gets over 100 degrees, you are providing a potentially dangerous area of your enclosure to your snake. Since I refuse to provide anything dangerous to my snakes, I won't do it.

Again setting the cage up properly. I have yet to see many reptiles get their heat from geothermal sources. If there are snakes who are not warmed by the sun, please fill me in. The sun works like an overhead CHE providing infrared heat downward. Why would I heat my cages any other way if I am trying to replicate the gradient of the wild?

[razeraze]

Originally Posted by morti

Incidentally, did you click the links in my first post or even read the averages that I typed about the climate where boas actually come from? There is a total of a 14 degree low temp to high temp gradient in Barranquilla. Why (oh why) would I want to provide a snake that comes from an area with high temperatures ranging from 88 - 92 with a hot spot of 100+ degrees as you have suggested?
Nocturnal: Active at night.
Does it get warmer or cooler at night?

Again I believe you do not understand the difference between a surface and air temp. The links you provide only show air temps. A temp gun would paint a completely different picture of Barranquilla.