Correct Cage Temperatures Debate V 1.0

[morti]

This is version 1 of the debate "Correct Cage Temperatures". What this thread is not is a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

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[razeraze]

Has anyone researched the climates and surface temperatures of their charges be they snakes, lizards, turtles or crocodilians?
Many people believe we can not set up a mutual environment or habitat where all these reptiles will thrive. Many believe because reptiles breed in captivity we must be providing them their optimal habitats, which is not always the case. I also feel because this has been done for so long many people are afraid to give their charges options. I find snake people are the hardest to convince.
Here is some simple proof and perhaps someone in Florida can go herping and temp gun these animals in the wild as well as record air temps, humidity and uvb microwatts.
Python molurus bivittatus (Burmese python) Near water, south east asia’s rainforest 82.4F average ambient 75% humidity
Iguana iguana (Green iguana)
Tropical rainforest of south and central America 80F average ambient 80-100% humidity
Alligator mississippiensis (American alligator) swamps of northern america 80F average ambient temperature 80-100% humidity
Varanus niloticus (nile monitor) Grass lands to rainforest of Africa 84F average ambient temperature 60-90% humidity
All of these animals are thriving in Florida though it is not there natural habitat. Why because the habitat is so similar. If a rainforest or swamp is averaging 80F air temps, the ground can easily be in the 100'sF and spots in the sun can be 130+F. Constant heat will make surfaces stay hot even when the sun goes down. Perhaps people in Africa and Thailand can answer also.

[morti]

Here in Kentucky, throughout the entire month of Sepetember, it was between 90-100 degrees every day. Surface temps could get a staggering 150 - 160 degrees. We got less than an inch of rain in September.

Would you reccomend these conditions to keep, say, a corn snake or a king snake in? Why or why not?

I can tell you from my personal field experience that when we went out twice in September looking for baby rattlesnakes that should have been newly born, we found nothing. Not a single snake present in areas that always produce snakes for us. Why is this?

When conditions in the wild get extreme (hot, cold, dry, wet) the snakes seek shelter. Many go underground. They emerge and are active when conditions improve... be that at night, after a rain, what have you.

Here in Kentucky, during the summer, if you go out mid day there is one species of snake you are likely to find: Black racers. They pretty much have the hottest part of the day to themselves. You will, however, find all manner of lizards. Fence swifts, 5 lined skinks, etc. The snakes are seeking shelter from the heat, the animals that are built for it are seeking the heat.

As a good example, here are the monthly temperature averages for Barranquilla, Colombia (where the boas come from):

Average Weather for Barranquilla, * - Temperature and Precipitation

Highs: 88-92
Lows: 74-76

Same thing for Iquitos, Peru:
Average Weather for Iquitos, * - Temperature and Precipitation

Highs: 86 - 89
Lows: 69 - 71

This is where they live.

One more thing to add... Boas are primarily nocturnal and crepuscular. They are not active during the hottest part of the day. They seek shelter from it in fact.

So armed with this knowledge of boas, their habits, and their habitat, why would I want to provide temperatures of 100+ degrees to a boa?

[natas]

I have observed the same exact thing as Morti here in Texas. This year was a mild year compared to last year...so I have seen plenty of reptiles out during the day. Last year was a different story. In the peak of Summer I did not encounter one reptile during the day unless I went looking under logs or other "covered areas". The only time I saw reptiles out in the open last year was at sundown.

In a cage, we are forcing a reptile a temperature range. This means that no matter how uncomfortable the animal is he/she is forced to take it. If we start forcing a to high temperature then we throw all sorts of stress on the reptile. To low of a temp will cause the reptile to go into a different state...sometimes in a hibernation state.

I have no idea if anyone has done actual data collecting on averages temps that reptiles occupy for every type of reptile...but that would be a better test then taking ambient average temps of the surrounding area. Just because we have corn snakes here in Texas with temps over 100 degrees and surface temps even higher does not mean that animal hangs out in the direct sun.

[RioBravoReptiles]

The most frequent mistake people make setting up reptile cages is trying to heat or cool the environment to one specific temperature. The optimum way to do it is to have available in the cage temperatures close to the very highest temperature tolerable and also the minimum temperature. That way the reptile chooses what temperature it needs or wants for the condition and period it is in. This goes also for those that hibernate or brumate or cycle their animals. The range supplied is higher in Summer and lowest in Winter.
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The second biggest mistake related to temperature problems or stress with many herps is using caging that is too small and or a heat-source that's too big. The problems with that are obvious.
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With boas and most snakes an important rule to consider is also that whenever possible indirect heating is best. This is more like how these animals gain (and shed) heat in nature.
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In Summer I supply boas with a hot spot of between 90-95 degrees farenheit and the cool side of the cage is near 80 degrees. In Winter the hot spot is no more than about 85 and the cool side may be down to 70 for most boas. And the total heating hours each day in Summer is more than for the same animal in winter.
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Temperature tables are like feeding schedules.. only a base-line starting point. You have to observe your animals in the environment you supply and apply what you learn to acheive the best care and conditions.
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That's my input on that.

[razeraze]

Simple because cooler parts of the days basking surfaces can still be well over 100F They will not use them if it does not serve a purpose. Hence why I keep my snakes cooler than my lizards but still provide the temps they would run into during their activity. Burmese pythons, african rocks can be found during the day as can retics, even on hot days just usually never sitting on a stone like a monitor would. Again this is why my monitor's surface temps are 30-50F higher than my snakes because their behavior suggest they need that heat, as with snakes their behavior (the ones I keep and research) show them to be nocturnal and avoid severely hotspots like 130F but they will use hot spots in the low 100'sF

Since I do not know anything about king or corn snakes or even rattlesnakes I can only comment on the animals I research. I can tell you when the sun goes down and the rattlesnakes all go onto the blacktop at night, I bet that blacktop is over 95F or 100F Morti if you have a temp gun, check on what surfaces you find these animals.

Gus well said, Well said. I think if you can provide these cooler and hotters in the same cage the snake will thermo regulate like it is supposed to. Keeping it just in the middle does not give the snake an option. I have noticed when a snake has a huge meal or does not feel well it will seek out hotter spots most likely to act as a fever or speed up digestion. The winter idea is a great idea Gus but I am not sure I can do that easily. I do have spots in the cages in the mid 70's during winter time, just because that is how my cages are set up.