Hybridization Debate V1.0

[natas]

This is version 1 of the debate "Hybridization". What this thread is not is a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

In this thread we will talk about the following:

• Is Hybridization unethical in the pet trade (reptiles, birds, mammals etc)? Please post your opinion as to why or why not.
• If it happens naturally in the wild, is it right or wrong to do it in the pet trade?
• Examples of hybridization (naturally and man-made)
• Any other discussion relating to hybridization. Examples: Viabilit, Sterile animals etc.

Special rules for this thread:
1) As always, please stay on topic. Off topic replies, will be removed.
2) Limit small replies like "that was awesome", or "Your wrong". Instead of replying like this, use rep or the "thank you" button.
3) Try your best to back your statement up with scientific fact, studies you have read or done.
4) DO NOT plagiarize. If you quote someones findings, please give credit by providing the name, or a direct link.
5) Before posting, please read the rules of this forum.

[ChadRamsey]

well just to name a few of the OBVIOUS reasons why it should NOT be done:

1) species size differential! example: burm smothering ball during breeding! Is that risk worth it? (maybe to some people! even though I cant figure out why!)

2) EGG size differential!!!!!! Could a ball carry and lay burm sized eggs? NO! Could a burm carry ball sized eggs? Who knows and I hope WE never find out!

3) Could it happen in the wild? NO!!!!!!! That would be a heck of a long distance relationship, huh? AS A RULE, do different species interbreed in nature? NO. God took care of that when he created them!
IT"S JUST NOT MEANT TO BE!


And to those that say: "Well some one else has already done it, so i am too!" I ask you this: Just because other people smoke crack are you going to?

Think about it!

[toker]

This is a very sticky one indeed.

Let me play the bad guy here, note that what I say isn't what I think, but rather the side most often called evil.

That which can be done, will be done in time. But on the flip, that which can go wrong, will go wrong.

I am unsure of how far in what direction this conversation is set to go, but lets break what this is down on a very simple level.

A burm is a snake, a ball is a snake, they are both snakes.

So, if you looked at it as, two snakes, it really isn't a big deal.

Keep in mind here, there isn't much of a stretch on what we are talking about and that of inter racial situation in humans.

A person is a person, so is a snake a snake?

Now, what if we are talking the hybridization of critters not in the same gnome… like crossing a parrot with a beetle?

[ChadRamsey]

Very good point Toker!

Humans can’t resist the urge to dominate, manipulate, and destroy EVERYTHING in their path. What concerns me most is that:For some reason we can’t fight that urge! It will be the demise of the entire EARTH and its existence! The snake hybridization is just another notch on the headboard of human domination!

[toker]

Originally Posted by ChadRamsey

Very good point Toker!
Humans can’t resist the urge to dominate, manipulate, and destroy EVERYTHING in their path. What concerns me most is that:For some reason we can’t fight that urge! It will be the demise of the entire EARTH and its existence! The snake hybridization is just another notch on the headboard of human domination!

I am unsure if you are taking the humans destroying the world from my "That which can be done, will be done in time. "

Honestly I see us as a people all being one race in a few hundred years, its not too much of a streach to think most critters of the same subspecies will be the same regardless of human intervention or not.

Mixing two like critters, isnt that bad, it isnt good, but will it be the end of the world, no, I doubt it.

Just as someone from Japan and Africa have a child, bad, no, but there are situations (mostly organ transplants) where that could be "bad".... I hope you see where I am going with this?

[morti]

Many people are not OK with crossing subspecies, like BCI or BCC because it is ethically wrong to them.

Many people are not OK with crossing species like Ball X Blood or Ball X Burm because it is ethically wrong to them.

Many people are not OK with crossing different genera like Kingsnake X Corn snake because it's ethically wrong to them.

Perhaps the reason that it seems less ethically wrong to others comes from a difference in perspective. If you are of the opinion that snakes are absolutely perfect in their wild-type form and we shouldn't mess with them at all, then the idea of hybridizing is going to be completely foreign to you. Perhaps what some of the people who produce these snakes are thinking about is: We already keep them in captivity, and that doesn't strike anyone as ethically wrong. We already breed for good looks (either for morphs or for nicer looking wild types) and that doesn't strike anyone as ethically wrong. Is is so far a stretch to say that for an animal that was bred in captivity for keeping in captivity, hybridization may not strike some people as ethically wrong?

Originally Posted by ChadRamsey

well just to name a few of the OBVIOUS reasons why it should NOT be done:
1) species size differential! example: burm smothering ball during breeding! Is that risk worth it? (maybe to some people! even though I cant figure out why!)
2) EGG size differential!!!!!! Could a ball carry and lay burm sized eggs? NO! Could a burm carry ball sized eggs? Who knows and I hope WE never find out!
3) Could it happen in the wild? NO!!!!!!! That would be a heck of a long distance relationship, huh? AS A RULE, do different species interbreed in nature? NO. God took care of that when he created them!
IT"S JUST NOT MEANT TO BE!
And to those that say: "Well some one else has already done it, so i am too!" I ask you this: Just because other people smoke crack are you going to?
Think about it!

1) This is a risk with many breedings. Males are generally smaller than females in many species. Bad things can happen even just breeding two boas together. You may note that it is the smaller male riding around on the larger female 99% of the time. Point one does not strike me as a high risk.

2) I think we already found out due to the apparently viable offspring in the pictures posted in a previous thread. Looks like one way or another, they can carry each others eggs. Incidentally, Ball eggs are rather large when you consider the size of the snake.

3) You are correct: A Burmese Python is never going to encounter a ball python in the wild. If there have been known instances of this happening in the wild, does this make it ok? For example: Wild collected Emerald Tree Boas have been known to come in gravid with offspring or Amazon Tree boas. In your opinion, is it OK to cross these two species then?

As far as God making them that way, I have almost no argument for you about your views on God. I learned a long time ago that once something is Holy, it's undebatable.

[Sam Sweet]

The hybridization issue has begun to arise with monitors, but is so far rather limited by the behavior of the animals themselves. It is difficult to successfully introduce adult pairs, probably because monitors are basically antisocial in the wild. It appears that wild animals gradually become familiar with their neighbors by scent marks with little or no actual contact, and that cycling females will permit mating by males they "know", but not otherwise. It has proved difficult to breed some species, like water monitors, due to high levels of aggression by females towards "strange" males -- chances are, some of this is also due to trying to mix animals from different localities whose odors and maybe behavior aren't compatible.
.
Nevertheless, there are a few instances, including V. prasinus X V. beccarii (twice), V. glauerti X V. pilbarensis, V. caudolineatus X V. gilleni, and especially V. gouldii (or gouldii flavirufus) X V. panoptes horni. The latter crosses are being made by a breeder in Arizona, who markets them along with "three-way" crosses back to V. gouldii. Since none of these animals are ever going to see the wild again, you could ask "what's the harm" and take the view that these designer crosses are just trinkets. However, there is another way to look at it that is based on the point that many of these monitor species are very uncommon in captivity in the US.
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Mixing up the gene pools of rarely-kept species is, in my opinion, highly irresponsible. No one keeps studbooks, and as animals change hands the truth of their parentage tends to become obscure. Before long (if not already) there will be no assurance of what you are getting if you manage to acquire V. caudolineatus or V. gilleni, and this is already true for V. gouldii/V. flavirufus. Mongrelization of the very limited pure stocks has no benefit that I can see, and many negatives.
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Going beyond monitors, I would argue that it is also irresponsible to produce hybrids between native species, whose offspring would have a chance to survive if released in the wild. This is part of a broader issue about releasing any captives that have been exposed to non-native species in someone's collection, or even moving wild animals around between distant capture locations. Sometimes these events are well-meaning, sometimes they are a fast solution to a problem, sometimes they are accidental, but they each carry some risk, notably of transferring parasites and diseases. We now think that chytridiomycosis, which is eliminating amphibian species worldwide, was distributed and established by the widespread use of African clawed frogs for human pregnancy testing. A disease that was native to clawed frogs (and did them no great harm) is now out of the bottle and wreaking havoc on species with no evolved immunity.
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You can think of hybrid genes as being another kind of 'disease' or 'parasite', whose effects on native populations are largely unknown at the outset, but have at least the potential to be harmful. If there is no good reason to create hybrids other than "to see if I can do it", this seems to be a poor justification.

[ChadRamsey]

Originally Posted by morti

3) You are correct: A Burmese Python is never going to encounter a ball python in the wild. If there have been known instances of this happening in the wild, does this make it ok? For example: Wild collected Emerald Tree Boas have been known to come in gravid with offspring or Amazon Tree boas. In your opinion, is it OK to cross these two species then?

As i stated before, if there are documented cases in the wild, then i have no choice but to tolerate it. I dont have to condone it, JUST tolerate it. Right?

[ChadRamsey]

Originally Posted by Sam Sweet

You can think of hybrid genes as being another kind of 'disease' or 'parasite', whose effects on native populations are largely unknown at the outset, but have at least the potential to be harmful. If there is no good reason to create hybrids other than "to see if I can do it", this seems to be a poor justification.

Well put! That is all it is: Who can see their name in the proverbial neon light in the snake world, on the internet, first with the most obscure cross.


Some one that is defending this practice, I challenge you to post on BENIFIT of hybridization! Please!

[RioBravoReptiles]

I'm against hybridising snakes or other wildlife. That includes between subspecies.. I'm a total nut about trying to keep the localities and at least the subspecies distinct.
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There are people who do want to create hybrids. They have justified to themselves any and all the risks to the animals and the uncertain future of any offspring created. All these things they balance against their personal wants and goals.
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Sometimes I even get caught up in that loop.. Why not? and it starts to become complicated to explain just why I feel so strongly against it. Maybe it's my appreciation for nature? I don't exactly know.
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So instead of thinking hard about why hybrids should NOT be made I think instead; what are the good reasons boa or python or colubrid hybrids SHOULD be made? Money? Controversy? Personal Gratification? Personal Rights? Those reasons may seem important to somebody who pulls these stunts but they aren't really good reasons to screw with the animals.
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That's what I think.

[morti]

Originally Posted by ChadRamsey

Well put! That is all it is: Who can see their name in the proverbial neon light in the snake world, on the internet, first with the most obscure cross.
Some one that is defending this practice, I challenge you to post on BENIFIT of hybridization! Please!

Many years ago when diamond pythons were being imported, there was a real challenge getting them to live very long. They were dieing of a "Trembling Disease" where they would shake uncontrollably and eventually die. It seemed to be a genetic thing, and as new blood was impossible to come by because of Australia's laws, no end was in sight. Somebody got the bright idea to cross a diamond with a jungle. The hybrid offspring did not suffer the same disease as the parents. After several generations, Diamond X Jungles are quite well established. Incidentally, through a separate set of selective breeding, diamonds are now established as a pure line themselves.

As for the benefit of crossing species as the more extreme example or genera as the most extreme, it gets a bit fluffier. Why do anything that pushes the envelope? To see what happens is the most common reason.

Note to those who wish to stone me personally: I don't keep hybrids and I don't have any future intention of breeding them... but I am not morally opposed to them either.

[morti]

Completely unrelated but still very on topic, I am more opposed to cross breeding local specific morphs (ie: Hog Island X Colombian boas or Corn Island X Mainland BCI) or subspecies (BCI x BCC) because the resultant offspring stand a much higher chance of being misrepresented than some of the outrageous cross specific or cross genera hybrids. I can see a much greater danger of never trusting a hog island boa again because of the commonality of crossing than of any future confusion that a BurmXBall is anything other than a hybrid.

[natas]

fishmommy brought this up in the Burm x Ball python thread:

She said she was against it because of the following: unknown requirements, unknown characteristics, and unknown long term health status

[bleeding_sarcasm]

This is actually a subject pretty dear to my heart. And I am with the anti-hybridizing species group.

My MAJOR concern is mis-representation, and these mis-represented animals being thrown back into the captive gene pool, one, that is already, so shallow when dealing with animals that are no longer imported.

There are so many varieties of even a single species, that when things that are closely related, like sub species, are crossed. they can look "similar" to species a, or species b. I WORRY that, if someone is going to do a cross, and no one is interested in an a X b cross, they will try to play it off, like it is infact species b. so they can make more $$. some unsuspecting customer buys species "b" and breeds it to their b, and sells these pure "b" animals to the general public. This hobby, has quite a bit of unethical "bad guys" who have no problems or issues with mis representing animals, or lying.

here is a good example:

Rhacodactylus, the genus that includes crested, gargoyle, and giant geckos.

Leachies [or giant geckos], are expensive. They are expensive babies, and even more expensive adults. for PURE henkeli [island subspecies] babies, expect to pay ~ $400. even more for leachianus leachianus [grande terre, mainland sub species] could be closer to $700+ PURE ADULTS from any locale go from $600-$1500 EASY.

both sub species, are divided up into different locales, the henkeli, or island species, has a different locale for each island, some of these islands were given codes when they were first imported, to combat issues with poachers so bayonaise was isle C, morro = isle E, nu ana, nu ami, pine isle, etc. Some of the islands are as small as a football field with populations of less then 20. there are NO MORE being imported ever.

So, for people who dont have much $ If they can get A leachie, ANY leachie they are lucky. so, lets say they got an island e [most common] and someone offers an isle C [also henkeli], they jump on it. and, people who are in it to breed ANY animals together, so they can sell babies and make back their $, are also the type of people, who dont wait the suggested 3+ years, and breed their adults early. isle c and isle e look very similar, and the babies could be produced as either one. and instead of being sold for $250 for the "mutt" it is, they can make another $150 off of it for selling it for either one.

Another example, is SPECIES hybridization. Currently, crested geckos, are being bred to chahoua. Hybrids go for like $400, pretty price tag right? The only problem, is that only males are hatching out. so when you have an adult crested X chahoua hybrid, what are you going to breed it to? but either a female chahoua OR crested. And... that is exactly what people are doing. breeding the hybrids back to either species, creating... duh duh duh dunnnnnn 25% crested or chahoua hybrids. now, i am sure, that an animal that is 75% crested, is going to look like a crested, and when it comes time to sell them, if no one is interested in a 75% crested/25% chahoua, then they are going to sell it as a crested, that person, is going to take their "crested" and breed it to their CRESTEDS, and then the whole gene pool is contaminated with chahoua. the effects of which, are unknown, since it is all relatively new.

of course there is "hybrid vigor" when you are dealing with animals that originated from a single pair, but there are steps you take to responsibly lessen the inbreeding. you breed second cousins, instead of siblings, and you import new blood from europe. With something that is as widely available as crested geckos, hybridization is because there is something that is "new and different" in place of creating a morph.

People who appreciate locale specific animals, appreciate them because of the beautiful things nature can create. And the scariest thing to ME, is for these naturally beautiful animals, to be hybridized and bred for morphs and color, making them the next leopard gecko. animals that have a little bit of every sub species, and look nothing like what they do in the wild.

I think thats quite a bit for now haha

[bleeding_sarcasm]

Originally Posted by natas

fishmommy brought this up in the Burm x Ball python thread:

She said she was against it because of the following: unknown requirements, unknown characteristics, and unknown long term health status

I would wager a guess and say, they would "trial and error" it, if it dies, thats definitely not the way to do it

[ChadRamsey]

Originally Posted by morti

Why do anything that pushes the envelope? To see what happens is the most common reason..

Human greed is the answer to that question. Plain and simple. Human greed and selfishness.



I am still looking for the "Benefit" of cross breeding by the way.

[ChadRamsey]

Originally Posted by morti

Many years ago when diamond pythons were being imported, there was a real challenge getting them to live very long. They were dieing of a "Trembling Disease" where they would shake uncontrollably and eventually die. It seemed to be a genetic thing, and as new blood was impossible to come by because of Australia's laws, no end was in sight. Somebody got the bright idea to cross a diamond with a jungle. The hybrid offspring did not suffer the same disease as the parents. After several generations, Diamond X Jungles are quite well established. Incidentally, through a separate set of selective breeding, diamonds are now established as a pure line themselves. .

this is not the benefit that i seek. Crossing the Diamond and the Jungle was not a benefit. It was just a cure to a problem that WE caused!

[natas]

A interesting link:
Top 10 Hybrid Animals - Hemmy.net, A source of varied interests

I had no idea about some of these. I of course knew about the famous Liger

Also, anyone have any issues with Hybrid plants? I have a few hybrid lilies that my dad has made over any years. Some are asiatic x oriental hybrids.

[morti]

I am mildly disillusioned at this point because it seems that we are all to quick to point the greed finger. By that logic, anyone who breeds any animal with the intent of selling the offspring is greedy. The desire to have a hobby that pays for itself is not mutually exclusive with the love of the animal. It seems that the only acceptable answer to ANY question is "Greed!".

If a breeder were to go through all the stress it takes to produce some of these hybrids, I would be very hesitant to call it greed. There are a lot of faster, easier ways of making money. In the case of the Burmese X Ball that started this debate, just breeding ball pythons right now is a good way of making money. I would be more inclined to believe that, if one were looking for a selfish motive, publicity would fit far better.

I can say that from those I have spoken with who have produced hybrids, the primary reason why would be to see if it could be done. Crossing genera should be a scientific impossibility, yet it has happened. Curiosity has led the best explorers and scientists throughout human history. What is experimentation, after all, but doing something just to see if it can be done, and to see what happens when you do it?

As far as the benefit to herpetoculture? Probably none. Does herpetoculture itself really benefit anybody in any way? Heck, I know it enriches my life, but does my mother, who does not like snakes, get anything in any way from my obsession? You are absolutely right though... I probably can't sate your desire for a good reason why hybrids should be produced. All I can hope to do is present a perspective of why some people may feel it's acceptable.

My personal standard of ethics tells me that if I should possess a hybrid, it should be honestly and properly represented. A strong case can be made that those who do not honestly represent hybrids are lacking in ethical character. To me, however, no case can be made that they are lacking in ethical character simply because they produce hybrids.

[bleeding_sarcasm]

in herpetoculture, what does publicity bring you... money! If you are well known, or stand out, for something different, people will buy from you, before they buy from someone who has the exact same everything, but that is "unknown"

I think the ethics issue lies with mis-represnetation. If someone wants to produce hybrids fine. if people want to buy hybrids, fine. I really could care less. I dont like them, I wouldnt BUY them, and I would discourage people from doing it, because I think its silly/wrong. But its like one of those, you cant tell people what to do. I dont ever want there to be a LAW about it. Its when that hybrid is bred back to the general population that ruins it for everyone who is trying to keep it "pure" weather thats done by the initial breeder, buyer, person who picks it up as a rescue and says "um.. this looks like blah" or it gets to petco, where, they dont know a corn from a king, let alone a cross.

I am against it, because, I dont have faith in people. Yes, in a perfect world, everyone would be ethical, and properly represent their animals, and have the animals well being as a top priority, but this world is far from perfect, and I am reminded every day.

Here is an example, This company [i wont use their name] got a pair of leachies, decided they LOOKED like isle E animals, bred the leachies, and sold the offspring on kingsnake as isle E animals. They took it down now, but their site used to say, in small text "probably isle e"

Did the people who bought from them know that? I have no idea. If they bought it as "pure" then they will sell it as "pure" and some unsuspecting dope will buy it, and its a never-ending cycle, started with ONE persons mis-representation.

I dont even mind people making money off of it. Pssh, everyone who sells something wants to make money off of it, because really, this hobby is a very very very expensive money pit. If my animals paid for themselves, i could die happy hahah.

I do have an issue if money becomes SUCH a priority, that animal wellfare is put at risk.

I disagree that hybrids arent "faster" when compaired to something like creating a morph, you have to wait for the gene to mutate, prove it out, breed the offspring, etc. and years later, you have something to offer the general public.

Hybrids, you get results with first generation of breeding, right away you produce something that is "new" and "different" that, of course can be sold for lots of money. In the morph debate, it was already established that "new" and "different" is more desirable for the majority of consumers.

If it was one of those "lets see if it can be done" situations for every one, Then, it would be done, held in high esteem for being the oddity of nature that it is, instead of being mass produced to be thrown on the market.

This is probably... all over the place, and i should step away from the computer, because it is very late, and i dont think i am making any sense haha.