Hybridization Debate V1.0

[morti]

I challenge you to find me anyone who is mass producing species hybrid snakes. I honestly don't know anything much about the lizard market at the moment, but hybrids don't lend themselves well to mass production. It is simply too difficult to convince two snakes of different species to breed... and then to produce fertile offspring.

And again... the only answer that seems to work is greed. If we bend every situation to try to narrow it down to greed, then you, me, and everybody else who breeds with the intention of selling are exclusively motivated by nothing but greed. I don't believe that.

[mrcota]

Over 8200 species of reptiles, most with a number of subspecies in the world and that does not seem to be enough. People feel the need to artificially manipulate that which has no need to be manipulated to the great detriment of the animals, which are nothing but a freak of nature (and have absolutely no scientific importance whatsoever if they do not exist in nature) and to the pet owners, who believe that they have something special. Yes, the pet owners indeed have something special: something that has no place in nature.
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No one addressed one of the saddest part of hybridization, specifically between species or genera: the number of unviable genetic freaks that die in the egg/during development or shortly after they emerge from the egg/are born live. It probably is not so bad for the ones that die during development, but think about those that are born alive or hatch. The ones that are so genetically messed up that they can not adapt to breathing air and slowly suffocate after emerging. How about those whose organs do not function correctly because of this genetic mess the 'breeders' have 'created'. These 'breeders' are not 'explorers' or 'scientists'. If they need a label, it is 'unethical', even before considering the 'greed factor' involved by the great majority.
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The entire situation is just sad: for the poor animal, for herpetoculture and for the unethical that would produce such things.
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Disaster story: They have a great number of hybrids where I live: Crocodylus porosus X Crocodylus siamensis, which was bred together for commercial interests and continued doing so because the hybrid produces a superior leather. Last year, the central flood plains had the worst floods in decades, flooding many of the crocodile farms, allowing many of the crocodiles to escape. The native Crocodylus siamensis is Critically Endangered and a docile species with no recorded unprovoked attacks; the hybrid is highly aggressive. Because of these escapes, all crocodiles are being killed outside of protected areas out of fear of the highly aggressive hybrids.

Morti: Hybrid crocodiles are mass produced for commercial purposes- multi-million dollar/year business. Pet trade also- but I have no idea why.

[RioBravoReptiles]

I think Morti has a good point.. a lot of things go on with other animals and plants that involve hybridizing, even laboratory-type crosses (such as with food plants and livestock). Yet we aren't protesting that, maybe we even use those products or enjoy those hybrids.
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Maybe it just comes down to personal interest or level of comfort or tolerance level. Of course here we are all intently interested in the subject of reptile hybrids.. if you went to the SOCCEER meetings (Save Our Cornish Chickens End Evil Research) then you'd see some hard words on chicken hybrids.
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One thing that I think of when I see snake hybrids is this: the person who first attempted this had no idea if it would work, if the adults would eat each other, if the babies would be born alive, half-alive or if they would have homes if they were born outwardly healthy. The original experiment was carried out with the health and welfare of the animals taking a back-seat to whatever other goals were considered. Even if the project is later judged a success and people buy in to it that's hard to get around.
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Here's an analogy that more people may understand.. you have two boas, the female has been not totally healthy, you're not sure what's wrong with her. And it's not even clear she is in condition to survive ovulation and birth or if the babies, if any, will themselves be healthy and perfect. But it's time for them to breed. HMMM, what to do?
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For the the people who make the hybrids it seems the choice is clear.. Go for it and see what happens. For most of the rest of the community of reptile keepers and breeders it would be to hold off and make sure things are ok first.
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Thanks for reading!

[morti]

Originally Posted by mrcota

Over 8200 species of reptiles, most with a number of subspecies in the world and that does not seem to be enough. People feel the need to artificially manipulate that which has no need to be manipulated to the great detriment of the animals, which are nothing but a freak of nature (and have absolutely no scientific importance whatsoever if they do not exist in nature) and to the pet owners, who believe that they have something special. Yes, the pet owners indeed have something special: something that has no place in nature.

If, for example, one of your monitors, were to produce a random mutation where one of the offspring was born hot pink with purple polka-dots, would you not feel special? It would probably never survive in nature, but the good news for the animal is, it's not in nature... it's in your collection. Would you not celebrate the anomaly simply for it's novelty value?

No one addressed one of the saddest part of hybridization, specifically between species or genera: the number of unviable genetic freaks that die in the egg/during development or shortly after they emerge from the egg/are born live. It probably is not so bad for the ones that die during development, but think about those that are born alive or hatch. The ones that are so genetically messed up that they can not adapt to breathing air and slowly suffocate after emerging. How about those whose organs do not function correctly because of this genetic mess the 'breeders' have 'created'. These 'breeders' are not 'explorers' or 'scientists'. If they need a label, it is 'unethical', even before considering the 'greed factor' involved by the great majority.

This is why I keep typing that making these hybrids is hard. Most of the time, it can't even be done successfully. I will admit that I don't fully understand the motives for a breeder to put themselves through that level of stress, let alone the animals.

The entire situation is just sad: for the poor animal, for herpetoculture and for the unethical that would produce such things.

I still fail to see how herpetoculture in general is affected in any way by ethical and honest people producing hybrids. So long as they are properly represented for what they are, I fail to see the harm being done to the hobby.

Disaster story: They have a great number of hybrids where I live: Crocodylus porosus X Crocodylus siamensis, which was bred together for commercial interests and continued doing so because the hybrid produces a superior leather. Last year, the central flood plains had the worst floods in decades, flooding many of the crocodile farms, allowing many of the crocodiles to escape. The native Crocodylus siamensis is Critically Endangered and a docile species with no recorded unprovoked attacks; the hybrid is highly aggressive. Because of these escapes, all crocodiles are being killed outside of protected areas out of fear of the highly aggressive hybrids.
Morti: Hybrid crocodiles are mass produced for commercial purposes- multi-million dollar/year business. Pet trade also- but I have no idea why.

That is truly sad on a number of levels. I have never visited a commercial breeding facility specifically geared toward the skin trade, but I can't imagine that we are talking about people that have the same love and respect for the animals as the people who breed comparatively smaller numbers of animals for the pet trade. The fact that Crocodylus siamensis is one of the animals involved boggles my mind. I can't understand why a government would allow such a thing. Perhaps I am used to the state laws here that go to extreme, almost silly levels to protect species.

You have, however, provided a suitable example of someone mass-producing a hybrid species for commercial gain that I was not aware of, albeit involving a completely different set of circumstances than I was initially considering.

I stand corrected.

[morti]

Originally Posted by RioBravoReptiles

One thing that I think of when I see snake hybrids is this: the person who first attempted this had no idea if it would work, if the adults would eat each other, if the babies would be born alive, half-alive or if they would have homes if they were born outwardly healthy. The original experiment was carried out with the health and welfare of the animals taking a back-seat to whatever other goals were considered. Even if the project is later judged a success and people buy in to it that's hard to get around.

Gus, I think it all comes down to "acceptable risk". Everyone has a different level of acceptable risk. An example for me is, I had a boa who was very special to me: My first snake. I had bred other boas before, but I had not bred her yet. Several years ago, I attempted to breed her. Everything seemed to go well... until my wife found her belly up one day. That hit me very hard. I ALMOST considered it too much risk for me personally to breed anything ever again. I eventually got over that and have done some breeding... because to me, the reward justifies the risk. I think that, to some people, the end result of producing something one of a kind that no one else in the world has, is a great enough reward to justify the risk.

[mrcota]

Originally Posted by morti

If, for example, one of your monitors, were to produce a random mutation where one of the offspring was born hot pink with purple polka-dots, would you not feel special? It would probably never survive in nature, but the good news for the animal is, it's not in nature... it's in your collection. Would you not celebrate the anomaly simply for it's novelty value?

Actually, I would feel sad, because with the exception of one species of monitors that I keep, all my breeding efforts will be geared towards the release of the progeny back into the wild. Because of its mutation, it could not be released in the wild, I would have to separate it and ensure it dies a Darwinian death, never to reproduce- a very sad thing.

Originally Posted by morti

This is why I keep typing that making these hybrids is hard. Most of the time, it can't even be done successfully. I will admit that I don't fully understand the motives for a breeder to put themselves through that level of stress, let alone the animals.

Between different species and genera, you are correct; in most cases it is not easy. Because of of significant physiological differences, they will be messed up on a wide variety of levels.

Originally Posted by morti

I still fail to see how herpetoculture in general is affected in any way by ethical and honest people producing hybrids. So long as they are properly represented for what they are, I fail to see the harm being done to the hobby.

Unethical conduct in the causing of suffering to creatures, as I described earlier, in order to hope to achieve something different is harmful. Doing something wrong does not make something right in the end. Hybrids of subspecies, in many cases, would not cause the suffering described, but you are still taking a considerable chance. Do some locality variants and subspecies produce progeny in the wild? Admittedly, yes, more so with locality variants, but sometimes, not often, it will happen with subspecies where ranges overlap, but in an example of those subject to geographical boundaries (water/mountains), no. Does that mean that the hybridization of subspecies that would never come in contact is ethical? In my opinion, no, in those cases the genetic differences might be too great and experimentation with living creatures, when there is a reasonable chance of suffering, is not the right thing to do= unethical.

Originally Posted by morti

That is truly sad on a number of levels. I have never visited a commercial breeding facility specifically geared toward the skin trade, but I can't imagine that we are talking about people that have the same love and respect for the animals as the people who breed comparatively smaller numbers of animals for the pet trade. The fact that Crocodylus siamensis is one of the animals involved boggles my mind. I can't understand why a government would allow such a thing. Perhaps I am used to the state laws here that go to extreme, almost silly levels to protect species.
You have, however, provided a suitable example of someone mass-producing a hybrid species for commercial gain that I was not aware of, albeit involving a completely different set of circumstances than I was initially considering.
I stand corrected.

The one who owns the largest crocodile farm here (might be the largest in the world) is actually one of the world leaders in crocodile conservation. He has the only successful breeding programme for Tomistoma schlegelii, which is barely holding on in the wild, and I believe he also keeps a stock of pure Crocodylus siamensis, which does not become part of the leather trade (they are protected).
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Michael