Euthanizing invasive species debate V1.0

[BWSmith]

This is version 1 of the debate "Euthanizing invasive species". What this thread is not is a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.


In this thread we will talk about the following:
With the influx of invasive species in areas such as the Everglades, native populations are suffering. Should all loose invasive species such as Burmese Pythons, Boas, many Geckos, monitors, Cane Toads, etc be euthanized/dispatched?


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[DaveA]

This is purely a Hypothetical question and desirves like in reply.

If you were to look at historical records of islands (including Austailia), and how the local flora & fauna was and is being basically destroyed by introducion of feral animals such as wild pigs, sheep, rats, cane toads and cats. Then my answer would be Yes. But there is no chance of euthanasia once a feral population is released.

[telefrag]

Just like the mongoose in the West Indies that is killing off native cyclura and epicrates, a burm should be treated no differently if it were to becomes well established in the everglades, or other parts of Florida.

there are more than enough in private collections and zoo's.
what else should be done with them?

[toker]

There are times when you simply have no choice. The bigger question is, can you really remove a problem critter once it sets in?

You might collect and kill 50 burms, but all it takes is to miss one gravid one, and your right back where you started.

Also, is the hunting and collecting of these critters causing more problems than to start with?

Say for example one option you have is a bounty, $XX per skin of each burm collected, so you have a massive public hunt, sure it would get rid of a lot of them, but what else will be killed in the process?

Sorry for giving more questions than answers, As telefrag said, what else could be done with them... answer... nothing.

[telefrag]

yeah, I would cringe at the idea of the kinds of people who would want to go in and hunt them.

they'd probably kill any snake they found.

anyone who wants to go out and kill snakes for fun isn't going to stop and decide if its the right species.

and there is no way to enforce it.

at least the babies are a viable source of food for alligators, birds, and other snakes.

maybe the indigo will make a comeback by feeding off young burms?

[amercnwmn]

Stories ranging from Cane Toads in Oz Cane Toads to Iguanas in Florida Igs in Florida and large constrictors in the Glades Invasive Pythons Squeezing Everglades its no secret that invasive animals cause destruction.
It has been mentioned already, there are very few rescue organizations that can handle one or two large constrictors or iguanas, they certainly can't handle the lot of them.
Besides eating native fauna, or killing it upon ingestion (in the case of the cane Toad) these animals have no natural predators in their area to help maintain the balance found in nature. It is important for the animal control officials to step in and help maintain that balance to protect the hundreds of other species of plants and animals that are being decimated by these invasive animals, as well as protect the human counterparts from danger.

I hate that it is happening to the animals, when essentially it isnt their fault they wound up dumped, and they are just doing what animals try to do, surviving.

[ChadRamsey]

This is a hard subject to comment IMO.

Yes, they will wreak havoc on the native species of all kinds, but you have to think about HOW they got there in the first place. The proverbial "WE", put them there. I have a hard time punishing the feral species when they had no control of which environment in which they were "tossed" into. They are doing what ever it takes to survive, you would too. What is sad is that most people will do what they normally do: Think about NOTHING but themselves, calculate how inconvenienced they will be by these feral snakes, and do what they deem will make them sleep better at night and eradicate them!

Euthanize the ferals for wanting to live and thrive: No

Euthanize and punish those that put the feral species in such a bad situation (OF ANY KIND): YES!

[mrcota]

The problem developing in Florida with Python molurus bivittatus, Varanus niloticus and you can not forget feral cats is a serious problem that needs to be dealt with and it should be a top priority before it gets completely out of hand.

Other invasives, such as Iguana iguana are also a problem. Recently, I identified a Hemidactylus frenatus that someone in Florida found. My older references did not even show this species in the US, but in asking a herpetologist in the US about them, he told he they have been there for years now.

I was in Guam from 1989-1991, which is one of the world's worst invasive alien species stories in history, when the Boiga irregularis problem was being seriously researched. A combination of Boiga irregularis and Bufo marinus have wiped out almost everything that moves. For those that do not think that threats to the ecosystem, like Python molurus bivittatus and Varanus niloticus should not be dealt with immediately (by eliminating them), take a look into what happened to the indigenous species in Guam: Pteropus tokudae is extinct, Embollonura semicaudata extinct on Guam, Guam Rail (Gallirallus owstoni) along with 9 other species of extinct in Guam of them 5 are fully extinct (reintroduction effort being made for Gallirallus owstoni), Mariana Crow (Corvus kubaryi) on the brink of extinction in Guam, Cryptoblepharus poecilopleurus, extinct in Guam, Gehyra oceanica extinct in Guam, Lipinia noctua, I collected the last known specimen in 1990 and returned it to the wild a few days later after reporting its presence- believed to be extinct in Guam, Nactus pelagicus extinct in Guam, Perochirus ateles extinct in Guam

If someone could responsibly care for some of these invasives taken out of the wild, I would be in favour of it, but they need to be eliminated from where they do not belong. Do nothing about the problem and you are looking at some species being wiped out.

Cheers,
Michael

[BWSmith]

We can take lessons from all over the world as to the effect of invasive species. I whole-heartedly support extirpating invasive species. It is sad that it is not their fault that they are there. But they are there none the less.

[ChadRamsey]

Oh, i am not saying leave them were they are, Lord no!

I am saying that they will most likely be hunted and killed!

What about a NON-lethal hunt and relocation, or adoption. Yes it would cost a ton of money, and eradicting them would cost the price of a bullet, there has to be a more humane way, and more importantly the "right" people need to be convinced.

[BWSmith]

Keepers were the problem to begin with. Why put them back in the hands of private individuals to produce more? It is hard enough to find a suitable home for one Burm. Try finding qualified homes for hundreds. Brett's porch can only hold so many.

[ChadRamsey]

doesnt he have a back porch?

[ChadRamsey]

i am NOT talking about giving them to pet stores and 16 year old kids who want one on a whim! I'm talking about quailified herpers. Make requirement that have to be met to adopt.

WE put them there WE need to fix it! Killing is not right!

[amercnwmn]

I understand what you are saying, Chad and I would LOVE to have something like that take place. I am certainly NOT a supporter of euthanizing animals over their owner's mistakes!!
However, the reality is that the funds don't exist, and before reptiles ever get the money, dogs, cats and other "fluffy" animals will get it. It has reached a point where they have to do something, and since the shelter/adoption ideas aren't "practical" for the animal officers, they will go with what is "easier and cheaper" which is just par for the course..and it's horribly sad.

[ChadRamsey]

For arguments sake: that’s a load of bull. Persecute the innocent?

[BWSmith]

I love herps and hate to see them destroyed, but I love the ecosystem more. I would like to be able to see your son take his son down to the Okee or the Everglades and see Gators, Corns, Cottonmouths, Indigos, Southern Toads, Gopher Tortoises, and all the other wonderful diversity we can enjoy now. I would hate to live in a world where field herping produced nothing but Burms, Iguanas, and Cane Toads.

There simply are not enough qualified homes. Heck, there are not enough homes for those animals given up for adoption to rescues. Add on another hundred iguanas a month and it is impossible. It is not the animals’ faults, it is ours. But our error needs to be corrected and that requires permanent removal from non-native ecosystems. Unfortunately, this probably means extirpation through euthanasia and/or on-sight dispatching of discovered specimens. It will get to the point when a snakehook and a .22 are standard issue for herping

[natas]

I know in the case of Burms that this maynot be possible but with the cane toad there maybe hope:
AM - New study finds cane toad predator

I am not sure on the status of the above, but this could help or open another can of worms by introducing yet another species.

So what do you guys think about introducing natural predators in the wild to get rid of them? I am sort of picking a side saying that it has the potential to make things even worse.

[ChadRamsey]

I agree BW, no doubt my son would love to take his son and a bag of oreos out to the Glades. Then we would have feral oreo HALFS hidden evrywere as well as burms!

BUT i am going to argue for non lethal measures here in this debate!

[ChadRamsey]

Originally Posted by natas

I know in the case of Burms that this maynot be possible but with the cane toad there maybe hope:
AM - New study finds cane toad predator

I am not sure on the status of the above, but this could help or open another can of worms by introducing yet another species.

So what do you guys think about introducing natural predators in the wild to get rid of them? I am sort of picking a side saying that it has the potential to make things even worse.

then some day we will be faced with that self-induced problem as well!

[RioBravoReptiles]

This is an iteresting and important topic and many of the answers given have added to my thinking on the subject.. Yes, the release of exotic animals is a bad idea and not only herps!
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Some info worth including in the discussion might be:
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Nature is not static. It is subject to change driven by many forces, including the actions of people (as individuals and as a society).
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Preservation of natural systems is one of the most important issues of our time yet all of nature cannot be placed behind a fence or under glass. Preserves will always be important but a 'New Nature' is what is evolving, with people as active participants. More of nature will be saved if we learn to co-exist with it, not attempt to segregate it (it form us or us from it). This new nature is not always the same as the old, for sure, but that doesn't make it worthless (or worse).
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Certain exotic pests need to met with zero tolerance (fire ants as an example) yet it is simple human nature that we will pick and choose which type of invader is ok or acceptable or even sacrosanct.. People lobby for wild horses, yet those imports destroy much of the Sonoran desert as we speak. The nation is currently enjoying a rush of fear and outrage over the plague of feral pythons yet their actual impact has yet to be even determined. Many more examples exist.
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A little less politics and personal interest and a little more reasoning would be helpful in the long run as well.
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Thanks for reading my thoughts on this..