Responsibilities of Breeders in Buyer Screening v.1

[SoberGuy]

This is version 1 of the debate "Responsibilities of Breeders in Buyer Screening". What this thread is not is a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

In this thread we will talk about the following:

* What responsibilities should a breeder have in screening potential buyers?
* What responsibilities would you like to see more breeders have in screening potential buyers?
* Other related discussion


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[amercnwmn]

Good topic:
My own personal opinions is that there should be some investigation into the knowledge and preparedness of the buyer, on behalf of the seller.

It shouldn't be JUST about the money. Breeding & Selling should be about the animals and the love of the hobby as well, and if breeders/sellers can make a good profit by housing their animals in good homes, I see no problem with that at all.

A couple of minutes talking to someone doesn't consume that much time.
I know in the repsonsible keeping thread, Craig & Karen were drug into some assumptions about their selling ethics.
I've had time to get to know them both on this site, so I'll use them as an example of reputable breeders.
I can see Craig & KarenC turning down a sale, if after speaking with a potential buyer, they think the animal will not be cared for properly. I know for a fact both are willing to take the time to educate the potential buyers and those who just want to learn more. They have done so repeatedly on this site, and with me personally.
There are others on this site who fit the bill of responisble breeders,
Gus, Tamara, Joe, Eric, jeez I know I'm leaving a lot of people out, and I apologize, but I can't list all the reputable breeders here...lol All of these people are more than willing to educate those who are in need of answers, even if the animals in question are not currently being purchased from their collection..
These folks are extremely involved and knowledgable in their animals, and they can quickly get a good feel for the buyer's ability (or lack of) to care for the animal. They can do so without having to give the buyer the 3rd degree.
I also don't see any of these folks selling any of their animals to an underage buyer without active parental involvement.

I've heard quite a few scary anecdotes of venomous sellers selling hots to whomever has the money and not caring what the person's state laws are, or what their experience level. That, to me is not right.

You have a certain responsibility to the animals you sell/care for and to the hobby. I think it should be something that comes automatically,to ask a few questions and turn down a sale if you feel its not right.
While I understand the time consuming factor I do think that everyone has a certain level of responsibility to protect the animals and the hobby.

[New_BP_Guy]

{Snipped}

I think if a someone decides they will start making money from breeding and selling animals, they should at least take some of that "hard earned" money and design a very well detailed care sheet. Have that on their web site (if they have one) and also get a bunch of them printed out and make sure someone sees it before they get the snake. then send one with the snake if they dont already have a hard copy...

[KarenC]

Originally Posted by VoodooChile

Good topic:
I can see Craig & KarenC turning down a sale, if after speaking with a potential buyer, they think the animal will not be cared for properly. I know for a fact both are willing to take the time to educate the potential buyers and those who just want to learn more. They have done so repeatedly on this site, and with me personally.
There are others on this site who fit the bill of responisble breeders,
Gus, Tamara, Joe, Eric, jeez I know I'm leaving a lot of people out, and I apologize, but I can't list all the reputable breeders here...lol All of these people are more than willing to educate those who are in need of answers, even if the animals in question are not currently being purchased from their collection..
These folks are extremely involved and knowledgable in their animals, and they can quickly get a good feel for the buyer's ability (or lack of) to care for the animal. They can do so without having to give the buyer the 3rd degree.
I also don't see any of these folks selling any of their animals to an underage buyer without active parental involvement.
You have a certain responsibility to the animals you sell/care for and to the hobby. I think it should be something that comes automatically,to ask a few questions and turn down a sale if you feel its not right.
While I understand the time consuming factor I do think that everyone has a certain level of responsibility to protect the animals and the hobby.

I agree with all the above and, actually, we have turned down buyers or talked them out of purchasing on more than 1 occasion. Reasons have ranged from they don't want to pay for airport to airport same day shipping and/or don't want to go through the hassle of going to the airport to pick up; just getting a not good feeling about the buyer from talking with them; having a parent call wanting an ETB for a preteen/young teen, who would be responsible for care without parental supervision; etc. We do screen buyers, although will sell to someone with no arboreal experience, but somebody interested in ETBs almost always has had other reptiles and at least has some experience as a keeper. We mentor our buyers when needed and, as mentioned before, help others out as well.

We have care and caging instructions on our web site and also have a little print out on care that goes out to inexperienced keepers. We also provide feeding/defecating/shedding records for our babies, as well as a picture CD. We aren't the only breeder to do this, I know of several other ETB breeders who do the same. I also know breeders of other reptiles that do similar.

Obviously, we are part of a very small niche in the reptile market and one that a lot of people aren't interested in. ETBs aren't a "quick buck" snake. It generally takes at least 5 years for an ETB to mature enough to have babies and even then you are pushing it for females. Heck, it can take 8-9 months, sometimes even longer, from mating to birth and then if you are responsible at least another couple of months to get the babies well-established.

We, admittedly, are not the norm for a reptile breeder. This actually is mostly a hobby that Craig keeps assuring me will someday pay for itself (I can only hope for the day) and we both have "day jobs" that pay the bills.

With all the above said, however, it's just not going to happen in the real world. There are too many people interested in nothing but the money. Many big-time breeders look at their animals as nothing more than livestock that are there to make them a buck and will do/say whatever is necessary to get that buck. Wrong, yes from the point of view of I dare say the majority of people on this site, but it's a fact of life and it's not going to change as long as we live in a commerce driven society.

The only way to fight the situation is to buy from the small-time breeder/hobbiests. You might have to pay a little more and might not have as big a selection, but you'll have a lot better chance of getting your personalized care/mentoring, etc.
Karen

[LdyDrgn]

We also screen buyers and have turned down many sales. We also do not sell anything unless it has shed a few times and is eating consistantly. Caresheets of what we produce and sell are on our website. Anytime we attend an expo, if someone is interested in purchasing one of our animals a caresheet is handed to them as well as any and all questions answered. If we feel they are not up to it, we refuse the sale and recommend they do more research...

It really upsets me to see someone at these shows selling babies that were just born, no first shed, not even eating yet. Then to later read posts about it passing away. *sigh*

[X-Factor]

Let me first say that I have not had the good fortune of being able to attend a show so I base my thought on an assumption.

In my very limited exposure to reptiles in general it appears to be that there is a large lack of GOOD information available at these shows, and a growing trend of money hungry "breeders." Suggesting that breeders need to be more proactive in screening buyers (and the good ones are) is easier said than done. I feel that the greater need and i think greater exposure is at these shows.

Breeder A - "You need to do more research, you aren't ready for this BP."

Ignorant buyer - *embarassing sulk*

Breeder B - "Sure! Here is a 10ft King Cobra for only $50! He has never gotten aggressive and can be kept in a glass acquarium and its great to see him eat live rats!"

Ignorant buyer - causes a large black eye on the herp community when he gets killed / allows it to escape.

[SoberGuy]

While I think there's numerous things to consider here in regards to the responsibilities of breeders, I'll try to limit this strictly to the area of buyer screening.

First, I think it all depends on what's being sold. A more hardy species, like a corn snake, would require much less screening that some something a little more delicate, like an ETB or GTP. Then it should be all the more thorough with a venemous species.

That said, I am not trying to imply that the life of a corn snake is of much less value or concern than anything else. Just that some species are much more tolerant of husbandry mistakes. Make a mistake with something more delicate, and you've got some serious issues.

I think the first area of screening, and the most obvious, is an actual in person screening. If someone walks into a store or up to a table. Would anyone in their right mind sell Louise a burm or retic without a few questions? Love her to death, but she's just too tiny (which she thankfully admits). A lot of thigns can be sized up in person, like size, age, general attitude, etc. Size, in this regard, is big to me.

Age is another important factor. I'm not a big fan of pets being sold to minors. To me, that means anyone under 18. I know we have some folks here who had pets as minors, and we have some minors here with pets. While we may have some stellar examples of minors who are responsible enough to properly care for various animals, I hate to say that this is not always the case. Age doesn't have much to do with it, there's a muturity factor as well. I think this needs to be weighed out by anyone selling any living creature. I think that what a minor should be able to purchase should be limited. As they increase in size, at some point parental consent should be required. Personally, I'd like to see parental consent for any living creature being sold to a minor, to ensure the parents are properly informed of what it takes to properly feed and care for any animal. At a minimum, I think parental consent should be required for anything with the potential to grow larger than 5 or 6 feet. Just my opinion.

I think breeders should ask what sort of set-up someone has. Everything from enclosure size and type, to heating methods, humidity, temperature controllers, even thermometer type, food availability, etc. Where will the cage be? You never know what some people will do....

There's also local laws to consider. Some things are legal in some states, and illegal others. What may be legal in a state may be illegal in a particualr county or city. I do not expect breeders to know the county and city laws outside of their immediate surroundings (mostly where they live or sell from), but I do think they should be aware of state laws. I think a part of screening should be asking each potential buyer to ensure that whatever they are interested in is actually legal to keep where they live.

There's a lot still that I want to cover, but I'll do that in another post. I think with all the screening anyone could possibly do, somebody will still end up buying something they aren't prepared for.

The purpose of thorough screening, to me, is to try to limit the amount of idiots that give the hobby a black eye. Too many news stories about snakes on the loose, people being bitten or killed, or just whatever. I think the more reposnsibilities the breeders take on, the more this can be limited. Of course, the world will never be ideal, and we'll still have people that will sell to anyone. C'est la vie.

I think buyer screening is a whole new ball game with hots. I'll leave that to those that buy and sell hots.

[amercnwmn]

I agree, good points.

I'd like to add it would be GREAT if show promoters supplied vendors with a list of states where venomous and large constrictors are illegal w/o permits.
I realize shows are busy places, but it really wouldn't take a second just to glance at the list after asking where the person lived.
Maybe have an extra someone on hand to check state issued IDs to determine wether the sale is legal. (Granted, it doesnt rule out city/county laws) but its a step to keeping animals out of the wrong hands.
Perhaps even vendors themselves could take the initiative to screen like this.

I know someone who just bought a Cobra. Second snake he's ever had, and they are illegal without permits where he lives. I'm disgusted someone would even sell one to him after speaking with him for a minute and knowing the laws where he lives. Just BAD, BAD, BAD, seller responsibility IMO.
Perhaps if they were legal, and he'd had some snake experience, and this guy was mentoring my attitude would be different, but I had to tell him what snake species he purchased.

[Stargazer]

Right from the start I have wondered about the ethics of the reptile breeding/importing industry. Personally, I hold the view that very few people should be keeping reptiles as pets, especially folks like me. I think the care is very involved, and most people are just not equipped for problems. I think serious inquiry and study should be a prerequisite, and there should be a 10-day waiting period for a giant snake, just like there is for buying a gun. I actually spent 2 months researching boa care before buying one, and I still am finding out things I didn't know. It's not as easy as it appears and should not be taken lightly.

However, there are many of us who have all sorts of pets--cats and dogs included--who don't have thousands$$ stashed away for emergency vet bills. We all do the best we can with our animals. In an imperfect world, I think the best we can hope for is that those who love and keep animals can do our best and be conscientious pet owners, that we belong to a site like this, and seek ongoing help and education. I do not personally understand the practice of buying, selling, and trading reptiles, as though they were inanimate commodities, but some of these people are impeccable at taking care of their snakes so who am I to judge? Seems, though, that there are more captive bred reptiles than there are really appropriate homes for them. Makes me wonder.

[X-Factor]

Originally Posted by VoodooChile

I agree, good points.

I'd like to add it would be GREAT if show promoters supplied vendors with a list of states where venomous and large constrictors are illegal w/o permits.
I realize shows are busy places, but it really wouldn't take a second just to glance at the list after asking where the person lived.
Maybe have an extra someone on hand to check state issued IDs to determine wether the sale is legal. (Granted, it doesnt rule out city/county laws) but its a step to keeping animals out of the wrong hands.
Perhaps even vendors themselves could take the initiative to screen like this.

I know someone who just bought a Cobra. Second snake he's ever had, and they are illegal without permits where he lives. I'm disgusted someone would even sell one to him after speaking with him for a minute and knowing the laws where he lives. Just BAD, BAD, BAD, seller responsibility IMO.
Perhaps if they were legal, and he'd had some snake experience, and this guy was mentoring my attitude would be different, but I had to tell him what snake species he purchased.

Wait, he didn't KNOW he bought a Cobra??

[amercnwmn]

Sorry not to hijack, he KNEW he bought a cobra, it was the common name and species he didn't know (incidentally it was a N. kaouthia, Monocoled Cobra)
I did found out he DOES have a mentor, and is getting permits, and the snake is not currently IN his collection, it's at the mentor's home.

However, this sort of thing is quite common.
As I said, I've heard horror stories of people purchasing venomous snakes like Gaboons as their first hot. *Not that ANY venomous snakes should be treated as any MORE dangerous than the next, they ALL should be treated as a snake with the potential to kill or maim should the wrong move be made.*

There are sellers who are just in the hobby for the money, and they don't give a rip about the consequences of their actions. On the other hand, there are MANY sellers and keepers who are diligent in their pursuit to educate, and take responsible steps to preserve their hobby and protect the animals they love.

I don't think the entire reptile hobby or the venomous sellers should be judged by the "bad apples" as there are people in EVERY hobby who ruin the hobbies with their behavior.