Do Reptiles have feelings Debate v1.0

[RevMojo]

This is version 1 of the debate "Do Reptiles Have Feelings". What this thread is not is a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

In this thread we will talk about the following:

• Can reptiles have feelings, such as like, dislike, love, etc.?
• Other related social behaviors in reptiles
• The differing degrees to which some species may exhibit such behaviors, should they occur
• The human urge to associate such behaviors where they may or may not exist
• Other related discussion

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[amercnwmn]

What kind of reptiles are we talking about?

Based strictly on my own observations,

I believe snakes experience somewhat LESS emotion/feelings than lizards:

I don't think my Corn snake has any affection or trust for me. I think she tolerates me. She realizes I'm not going to eat her, although she goes on High Alert whenever I reach into her cage. Once out, I believe she thinks I'm a really warm tree branch that moves around. lol
I think she feels "secure" once she's out and realizes she's NOT on the menu.
I had a boa, however, that never shied away from me, and seemed to RELAX when being held and would often seem to go to sleep. Do I think he "loved me"? No, I think he was just more secure than my Corn snake.

Now iguanas, and other lizards are a completely different story in my observations:
My Iguana is still leery of me, and not sure WHAT I'm doing reaching in his cage. I know, based on my research, he may develop a sort of affection, and may even seek out human comfort or warmth (or avoid it completely) when he's out of his cage.
I've seen many lizards that appeared to be VERY affectionate, and others not so much. I think it depends on the bond between animal and keeper in some cases.

With snakes, I believe they have SOME emotion, but probably less than that of many lizards..I think they know "fear", "insecurity", "security", "contentment", "aggression", and to some extent, "trust". Pretty sure "anger" is in there, as well..LOL

Do I think they are COMPLETELY without feeling, no I don't.

[momakat]

What we observe and identify with could change with the species of the reptile in question. I have only my BP, Rex, to relate to - or compare.

When putting my cat into his carrier - he used to fight me and try to get out. When he wanted attention he demanded it from me.

Comparison? When putting Rex back into his home he sometimes tries to climb back up my arm. So . . . is he just not wanting to go back home or wanting more time with me? Hmmm . . .

A lady in the vet office asked me if I thought Rex loved me - as he was so patiently draped about my shoulders and flicking my cheek. I said it's hard to know - but that I did feel I was part of his comfort zone. An area where he felt safe and not threatened. Although I like to think that he loves me . . .

[RevMojo]

My beardie exhibits behaviors that could almost be described as happiness when he can see a bag of crickets in my hand. It's certainly excitement beyond the raised level of awareness associated with hunting prey. Does he like me? I doubt it. Love? Absolutely not.

Turtles? I don't know...I've leave that to someone else.

Snakes? I think snakes are too dumb for emotions. Simple is probably a better word. They don't need any sort of social structure in nature beyond warning off potential predators (and I'd call fear more of an instinct than an emotion), and never needed to develop emotions like other creatures with more complex social structures. Eat, sleep, repeat. Procreate as needed. No emotion needed. Sorry, but I don't think a snake is capable of love, or even like. The good news for those of you that keep getting bit...your snake doesn't hate you either.

[Bluzmn59]

I tend to agree that snakes do not have emotion. I will not speak of other reptiles. I believe a snake that is handled often will develop a comfort level with that person, but it is probably no more than the comfort they develop by being in their own cage vs. sitting in a Rubbermaid during cage cleaning. I know that my RTB that I had for his whole life will often try to get away from my wife or someone else handling him and stretch toward me. I do not attribute that to love or emotion, it is because I am the one that always handles him, feeds him, changes water, etc., and he is likely more comfortable with my presence.

[crush]

Snake i am not sure of. You take an Iguana and or a Tegu and I have to say I believe they do. Some close thier eyes and push there heads to your hand to be rubbed and close thier eyes. I believe they like it.

[TongueFlick]

Originally Posted by crush

Snake i am not sure of. You take an Iguana and or a Tegu and I have to say I believe they do. Some close thier eyes and push there heads to your hand to be rubbed and close thier eyes. I believe they like it.

I like to believe this also, not just because monitor lizards/tegus, (not sure about others) have 'like' they have 'annoyance' or 'dislike'. Many times Gryphon will come up to me for head-rubs, (LOL, just look at my avatar) but equally many times he will skitter away from me, and try to hide. "Abby, I want back in my cage." But that only enhances my view that lizards have feelings; sometimes it's in their nature to cuddle, other times they feel that being left alone is best for them.

[sarecho7280]

people don't consistently differentiate between a reaction to a stimulus and actual emotion though. and what exactly IS emotion. is relief emotional? is scratching an itch something you do out of instinct or emotional benefit?

[Stargazer]

There is the whole field of animal communication. Some people have written volumes on what animals (including reptiles) have "told" them about their likes, dislikes, feelings, etc. through telepathic communication. To my knowledge there is no hard evidence to prove or disprove whether this is valid. I have used animal communicators on two occasions for my cats and found them quite useful and insightful into the reasons for certain behaviors.

One very famous animal communicator is Linda Tellington. She invented "Tellington Touch", a form of gentle and nurturing touch for animals. She once did a workshop where she "talked" to a large boa constrictor. I do not recall what they were "talking" about. Later during the class, the snake managed to make its way across the room, slither up her back, and rest its head on her shoulder. I like to think this is a sign that some connection can be made. I think animals communicate in a much different way than humans do but are very sensitive to our energies. If a snake can react to our fear, why couldn't it also react or our loving feelings toward it?

[sarecho7280]

Originally Posted by Stargazer

There is the whole field of animal communication. Some people have written volumes on what animals (including reptiles) have "told" them about their likes, dislikes, feelings, etc. through telepathic communication. To my knowledge there is no hard evidence to prove or disprove whether this is valid. I have used animal communicators on two occasions for my cats and found them quite useful and insightful into the reasons for certain behaviors.
One very famous animal communicator is Linda Tellington. She invented "Tellington Touch", a form of gentle and nurturing touch for animals. She once did a workshop where she "talked" to a large boa constrictor. I do not recall what they were "talking" about. Later during the class, the snake managed to make its way across the room, slither up her back, and rest its head on her shoulder. I like to think this is a sign that some connection can be made. I think animals communicate in a much different way than humans do but are very sensitive to our energies. If a snake can react to our fear, why couldn't it also react or our loving feelings toward it?

pain is the stimulus that it associates with you. it's not thinking "i'm afraid" its instincts just tell it "that thing, pain, bad, survive" (exactly in those words, in a caveman voice at that)


that's why some bite and some run

[Stargazer]

But how do you know this to be a fact?

[sarecho7280]

Originally Posted by Stargazer

But how do you know this to be a fact?

i can talk to animals and trust me, it's like talking to my little brother

ironically i was just talking to a guy who has kept king cobras and he said that he read a book that made them seem so intelligent and mentally capable and he dismissed it even though the author is someone he respected. well, he raised one from a baby and he said the guy was correct and that his king was just so different than other snakes. looked to be pondering things at times, figuring things out, recognizing him from other people and even seemed to trust him quite a bit.

[amercnwmn]

Yes, excellent point... I definitely didn't take Cobras into account, many cobras do appear to be quite intelligent and their reasoning is astounding for a "stupid snake that only acts on instinct"..

I definitely think some animal are much more intelligent and appear to have certain bonds with their keepers, where others do not. The truth is, we may never really know without a shadow of a doubt what our animals are capable of.

[deadliestformula]

I don't know if this is exactly what everyone means by feelings or not, but some snakes seem to have an 'intelligence' about them. Just a look and a way of carrying themselves that makes a small shiver run up my spine. Like they are watching you and are smart. Just a creepy kind of thing. Hard to put it into words, but I know I feel it whenever I am near any sized Retic. But our BP doesn't give me that 'vibe'. Just something about retics that make them seem eerily like they are plotting. Where as the ball python just has a dumb de-de-dee type of manner, and our BCI's seem moderately more intelligent, and the burms just kinda act like labradors.

I think that the 'intelligence' sort of figures into the emotion thing, but it may just be me projecting human characteristics onto animals. (I can't spell that anthro blah blah blah ism word)

[schatzie001]

Would agitation be a reaction or a feeling? My big boa (has since passed on) would give me a nip if I uncoiled her (gently) from anything she managed to get wrapped around. I interpreted it as her having a bit of a tantrum and her way of letting me know she wasn't pleased about it, and then she was just fine afterwards, attitude wise.

[Stargazer]

I met a guy at a reptile expo last summer who have a 6 foot albino burmese python that was very docile and would let anyone hold him. However, he said that when he let the snake loose in the yard, it would usually end up coming back to him and climbing on him. Another friend had a large snake that could get out of its cage and would end up in bed with its owners "cuddling." Certainly gives the appearance of some sort of bonding between snake and owner. Mine don't seem to be all that bonded to me, but they certainly do exhibit trust when I am holding them and try to come back to me when other people are holding them.

[torlax]

I believe they do have feelings. sometimes i think my snakes show happiness or sadness. without feelings they would be boring. A SNAKE WITHOUT FEELINGS IS LIKE A PERSON WITHOUT FEELINGS, it doesn't work.

[Stargazer]

The best argument I have for snakes having feelings is: Chance and Louise. You can't tell me that snake does not love her.

[Stargazer]

Another interesting idea (not to get too metaphysical) is that Buddhists believe in the idea of reincarnation. In Buddhist philosophy, if you are thinking about an animal at the time of your death, you will be reborn as that animal. Animal communicators also believe that animals can reincarnate into the same type or different type of animal. It's an interesting theory. Have you ever had an animal that you could swear acts just like your old animal that died? Or a feeling you've know him before? Just something to think about. When you factor in the idea of an animal having a "soul" that goes beyond the physical form, it is very plausible that there is an intelligence there that we are not aware of. Animal communicators claim to communicate with animals on this "soul" or spirit level.

[RevMojo]

Originally Posted by Stargazer

The best argument I have for snakes having feelings is: Chance and Louise. You can't tell me that snake does not love her.

Sure I can. What specific behaviors has it ever exhibited that show love? Is tolerance an emotion?