Responsible Reptile Keeping Debate V1.0

[natas]

This is version 1 of the debate "Responsible Reptile Keeping Debate". What this thread is not is a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

In this thread we will talk about the following:

• Impulse buying
• Responsibility of the breeders. Should they be required to provide caresheets and other information?
• Should parent permission be required when buying any reptile if under the age of 18?
• What does responsible reptile keeping mean to you?
• Anything else related to responsible reptile keeping.

Special rules for this thread:
1) As always, please stay on topic. Off topic replies, will be removed.
2) Limit small replies like "that was awesome", or "Your wrong". Instead of replying like this, use rep or the "thank you" button.
3) Try your best to back your statement up with scientific fact, studies you have read or done.
4) DO NOT plagiarize. If you quote someones findings, please give credit by providing the name, or a direct link.
5) Before posting, please read the rules of this forum.
6) 10 day bans for personal attacks on persons or companies.

Your opinion on the matters above are important. This subject is a very touchy one, so please respect each other.

Enjoy, and have fun!

[louise]

responsible reptile keeping, what it means to me......
first off i want to talk about rescues, that is my main pet peeve. people get free rescues and they never get them to the vet and if the snake lives it lives and if it dies it dies. if it dies these people just go get a new rescue. to me getting a rescue means you will go to hades and back to save this critter, you are rescuing it.
rescue:liberate, release, save, redeem, ransom, extricate, recover. 3. liberation, deliverance, release, redemption, recovery.
most of the time rescues cost more then if you would have bought a healthy snake.

responsible keeping to me means you will do what is in best interest for the critter, not the owner. best caging, healthy food, clean cage and many hours of time spent doing all this. i feel nobody should breed critters that they know can be born with a birth defect and that includes a slight head wobble or born with one eye. i think people should stop and think...would i be okay with it if i
was born with a slight head wobble or with one eye.

i feel you should research what kind of pet you are getting and think if you can handle this pet when it is full grown, for a large constrictor....will you have help? can you handle having dead rats in your house/freezer? will you
start fearing the snake if it bites you?

i do not feel that the snake/reptile should just become a hobby or a reason to make money. i think people should always feel that the first most important thing is that the snake/reptile is a living creature and then next they should worry about if it can bring them some money in.

what i am trying to say is....the animals comfort and health should always come first.

[HARTSOCK]

Impluse buying

Probably the most tempting thing when it comes to reptiles. The beardies look really cute, that snake looks cool, etc and that person knows nothing about it.

That is exactly how I bought my RTB as my first snake. I have wanted one for years and knew alot about snakes in general but not keeping them. I went to buy my kids hampsters and there he was. I bought everything needed for him and took him home and then realized that I had no clue what I was doing with this snake. I did have the sense to buy a book and after I got him set up like I saw in the pet store, I went back and read everything I could from the book and on the net, bought more books, posted HELP! questions and quickly educated myself.

Every snake I have gotten since then I have researched carefully, except for three. I bought two Saharan Sand Boas that I thought were the same as Kenyans and I just got a pine snake from someone who was selling me a cornsnake and they said since they couldnt' find a home for him, they were just going to release it. (it's captive born) But with these three I researched immediately what needed done.

Impluse buying usually results in dead or sick reptiles and unwanted pets. I think we need to do our best to get people to understand the responsiblity in buying or taking a live animal. One thing I think we need to remember is that the general public does not understand that they need to do this. They buy the pet thinking how easy it is to care for without taking in consideration special needs.

My biggest pet peeve is that there are times when we are quick to condemn these people without trying to educate them first. And you can't educate someone by standing over them and pointing a finger going tsk, tsk, tsk. You need to explain what they are doing wrong and do it in a way they don't turn you off. Really, in any subject, if you approach a person and belittle or berate them, you have lost your audience. That doesn't mean to be wishy-washy or not confront them on issues, but to do it in a way that doesn't make them turn you off immediately.

Breeder, store owners, IMO should provide care sheets. However, many times the care sheets aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Neither is the advice from the store clerks. I was told when I got my RTB that it was fine to just keep a 30 watt bulb over the cage (in the middle) and turn it off at night, as long as temps don't go below 60 degrees everything was fine. So not only did I impluse buy, but I was given wrong advice and who was I going to listen too, the guy that is suppose to know what they are doing. I think the sheets would be good if they were supplied by a certified organization where there are checks and balances.

No animal should be sold to a minor without parents permission. I know there are some on here that show that they are responsible, but I wonder how many pets get discarded or are not cared for because of cost, loss of interest, etc because a minor made the purchase. Parents should be informed of the costs and care beyond the initial layout, but then again, who is going to do the informing.

Being a respnosible herp owner, or any pet owner, means you are willing to go the extra mile in caring for your animal, taking the initative in learning how to best care for it, and educating others about your pet (which involves not showing off for the shock factor of a big snake.)

[New_BP_Guy]

I believe when it comes to buying animals (not just reptiles) from a store/breeder there should be a care sheet/questionnaire and only if the potential buyer can say yes to the questions should they be able top purchase the animal.

But even then people will catch on and start lying just so they can be happy with an unhappy animal. I wish that more people would educate them selves before buying the animal rather then after; when I read a new thread of someone who just got a new pet I hate to see "I just got this cute little guy, but how do I take care of him", that is what gets me going.

As for the parent permission I do think that if a child is under the age of 16-18 (as I think that some 16 yr olds are responsible enough), but the parent should be the one to full out the questionnaire so they will know what they are getting into and if they think that they can do it...

[VoodooChile]

I totally agree..My thoughts on responsible reptile keeping have not always been followed by myself, in all honesty.

Ideally, a proper set up, equipment, research, investigating breeders/sellers, and finding a vet with up-to-date knowledge on your animal should be dealt with BEFORE your animal EVER comes home.
However, I think the majority of us have ended up with impulse acquisitions. Many of us ran into someone who said they had a snake that needed a home, so we jumped on it, or we saw a sick snake in the store, bought one at a show spur of the moment, because the price was right.....etc..

Things aren't always perfect, but I think the majority of people really DO want to do their animals well (maybe that's just those Rose tinted glasses?)
I've come across MORE people who wanted to provide well for their snakes, than those who just flat didn't give a rip.

Usually those I run into who may have things wrong with their set ups or their care, are open to suggestions on how to change things for the better.
I'm constantly jotting down my number and referring them to websites like this for information in case they need it.

Honestly I think breeders SHOULD provide ALL the help they possibly can to help the animals. Caresheets, advice, suggestions, information...whatever.
Even if they were not the original seller of the animal, being able to call up someone more experienced and ask questions should be something any reptile keeper should be able to do.
I've said it a hundred times, we are all in the same hobby, if we don't work together, the odds we won't HAVE a hobby are pretty high.

As far as underage keepers, I would support buyers being at least 18 or have parental permission. Shelters don't let you adopt dogs or cats without being 18..
These are living breathing animals, and while I think there are quite a few younger keepers who are AMAZING at keeping their animals healthy, I think overrall it would benefit the animals for parental involvement to be required.
(Not that parental involvement means the animal will be safe..I know)
I do think it would cut down on neglected/abandoned animals, even if it means ONE less, it's still ONE less.

Just my thoughts on the issue.

[RevMojo]

I'm all for basic levels of care being used for the reptile, and any other pet for that matter, and agree that someone should have to be 18 in order to purchase.

I disagree with Louise's opinion that reptiles should not be kept for the sole purpose of making money. If someone wants to make a living off of it, and can provide adequate and appropriate living conditions for their stock, I don't object. Some people keep pigs as pets, others farm them. I have more of an issue with the pet owners who get into it, then suddenly feel like they need one of everything, and end up with huge, poorly kept collections.