Responsible Reptile Keeping Debate V1.0

[natas]

This is version 1 of the debate "Responsible Reptile Keeping Debate". What this thread is not is a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

In this thread we will talk about the following:

• Impulse buying
• Responsibility of the breeders. Should they be required to provide caresheets and other information?
• Should parent permission be required when buying any reptile if under the age of 18?
• What does responsible reptile keeping mean to you?
• Anything else related to responsible reptile keeping.

Special rules for this thread:
1) As always, please stay on topic. Off topic replies, will be removed.
2) Limit small replies like "that was awesome", or "Your wrong". Instead of replying like this, use rep or the "thank you" button.
3) Try your best to back your statement up with scientific fact, studies you have read or done.
4) DO NOT plagiarize. If you quote someones findings, please give credit by providing the name, or a direct link.
5) Before posting, please read the rules of this forum.
6) 10 day bans for personal attacks on persons or companies.

Your opinion on the matters above are important. This subject is a very touchy one, so please respect each other.

Enjoy, and have fun!

[louise]

responsible reptile keeping, what it means to me......
first off i want to talk about rescues, that is my main pet peeve. people get free rescues and they never get them to the vet and if the snake lives it lives and if it dies it dies. if it dies these people just go get a new rescue. to me getting a rescue means you will go to hades and back to save this critter, you are rescuing it.
rescue:liberate, release, save, redeem, ransom, extricate, recover. 3. liberation, deliverance, release, redemption, recovery.
most of the time rescues cost more then if you would have bought a healthy snake.

responsible keeping to me means you will do what is in best interest for the critter, not the owner. best caging, healthy food, clean cage and many hours of time spent doing all this. i feel nobody should breed critters that they know can be born with a birth defect and that includes a slight head wobble or born with one eye. i think people should stop and think...would i be okay with it if i
was born with a slight head wobble or with one eye.

i feel you should research what kind of pet you are getting and think if you can handle this pet when it is full grown, for a large constrictor....will you have help? can you handle having dead rats in your house/freezer? will you
start fearing the snake if it bites you?

i do not feel that the snake/reptile should just become a hobby or a reason to make money. i think people should always feel that the first most important thing is that the snake/reptile is a living creature and then next they should worry about if it can bring them some money in.

what i am trying to say is....the animals comfort and health should always come first.

[Hartsock]

Impluse buying

Probably the most tempting thing when it comes to reptiles. The beardies look really cute, that snake looks cool, etc and that person knows nothing about it.

That is exactly how I bought my RTB as my first snake. I have wanted one for years and knew alot about snakes in general but not keeping them. I went to buy my kids hampsters and there he was. I bought everything needed for him and took him home and then realized that I had no clue what I was doing with this snake. I did have the sense to buy a book and after I got him set up like I saw in the pet store, I went back and read everything I could from the book and on the net, bought more books, posted HELP! questions and quickly educated myself.

Every snake I have gotten since then I have researched carefully, except for three. I bought two Saharan Sand Boas that I thought were the same as Kenyans and I just got a pine snake from someone who was selling me a cornsnake and they said since they couldnt' find a home for him, they were just going to release it. (it's captive born) But with these three I researched immediately what needed done.

Impluse buying usually results in dead or sick reptiles and unwanted pets. I think we need to do our best to get people to understand the responsiblity in buying or taking a live animal. One thing I think we need to remember is that the general public does not understand that they need to do this. They buy the pet thinking how easy it is to care for without taking in consideration special needs.

My biggest pet peeve is that there are times when we are quick to condemn these people without trying to educate them first. And you can't educate someone by standing over them and pointing a finger going tsk, tsk, tsk. You need to explain what they are doing wrong and do it in a way they don't turn you off. Really, in any subject, if you approach a person and belittle or berate them, you have lost your audience. That doesn't mean to be wishy-washy or not confront them on issues, but to do it in a way that doesn't make them turn you off immediately.

Breeder, store owners, IMO should provide care sheets. However, many times the care sheets aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Neither is the advice from the store clerks. I was told when I got my RTB that it was fine to just keep a 30 watt bulb over the cage (in the middle) and turn it off at night, as long as temps don't go below 60 degrees everything was fine. So not only did I impluse buy, but I was given wrong advice and who was I going to listen too, the guy that is suppose to know what they are doing. I think the sheets would be good if they were supplied by a certified organization where there are checks and balances.

No animal should be sold to a minor without parents permission. I know there are some on here that show that they are responsible, but I wonder how many pets get discarded or are not cared for because of cost, loss of interest, etc because a minor made the purchase. Parents should be informed of the costs and care beyond the initial layout, but then again, who is going to do the informing.

Being a respnosible herp owner, or any pet owner, means you are willing to go the extra mile in caring for your animal, taking the initative in learning how to best care for it, and educating others about your pet (which involves not showing off for the shock factor of a big snake.)

[New_BP_Guy]

I believe when it comes to buying animals (not just reptiles) from a store/breeder there should be a care sheet/questionnaire and only if the potential buyer can say yes to the questions should they be able top purchase the animal.

But even then people will catch on and start lying just so they can be happy with an unhappy animal. I wish that more people would educate them selves before buying the animal rather then after; when I read a new thread of someone who just got a new pet I hate to see "I just got this cute little guy, but how do I take care of him", that is what gets me going.

As for the parent permission I do think that if a child is under the age of 16-18 (as I think that some 16 yr olds are responsible enough), but the parent should be the one to full out the questionnaire so they will know what they are getting into and if they think that they can do it...

[amercnwmn]

I totally agree..My thoughts on responsible reptile keeping have not always been followed by myself, in all honesty.

Ideally, a proper set up, equipment, research, investigating breeders/sellers, and finding a vet with up-to-date knowledge on your animal should be dealt with BEFORE your animal EVER comes home.
However, I think the majority of us have ended up with impulse acquisitions. Many of us ran into someone who said they had a snake that needed a home, so we jumped on it, or we saw a sick snake in the store, bought one at a show spur of the moment, because the price was right.....etc..

Things aren't always perfect, but I think the majority of people really DO want to do their animals well (maybe that's just those Rose tinted glasses?)
I've come across MORE people who wanted to provide well for their snakes, than those who just flat didn't give a rip.

Usually those I run into who may have things wrong with their set ups or their care, are open to suggestions on how to change things for the better.
I'm constantly jotting down my number and referring them to websites like this for information in case they need it.

Honestly I think breeders SHOULD provide ALL the help they possibly can to help the animals. Caresheets, advice, suggestions, information...whatever.
Even if they were not the original seller of the animal, being able to call up someone more experienced and ask questions should be something any reptile keeper should be able to do.
I've said it a hundred times, we are all in the same hobby, if we don't work together, the odds we won't HAVE a hobby are pretty high.

As far as underage keepers, I would support buyers being at least 18 or have parental permission. Shelters don't let you adopt dogs or cats without being 18..
These are living breathing animals, and while I think there are quite a few younger keepers who are AMAZING at keeping their animals healthy, I think overrall it would benefit the animals for parental involvement to be required.
(Not that parental involvement means the animal will be safe..I know)
I do think it would cut down on neglected/abandoned animals, even if it means ONE less, it's still ONE less.

Just my thoughts on the issue.

[RevMojo]

I'm all for basic levels of care being used for the reptile, and any other pet for that matter, and agree that someone should have to be 18 in order to purchase.

I disagree with Louise's opinion that reptiles should not be kept for the sole purpose of making money. If someone wants to make a living off of it, and can provide adequate and appropriate living conditions for their stock, I don't object. Some people keep pigs as pets, others farm them. I have more of an issue with the pet owners who get into it, then suddenly feel like they need one of everything, and end up with huge, poorly kept collections.

[New_BP_Guy]

The whole keeping just to make money is its own debate so I wont touch that to much but I will just say that I dont believe in keeping snakes in a small bin just so you will have the space to stock pile snakes....

As for "rescuing" I do not think that a unexperienced keeper should offer to "rescue" a snake from someone or some place unless they fully understand what they are getting into and know what the the snakes needs are. Other wise the snake is going to end up in bigger trouble.

[TammyJamaica]

Originally Posted by RevMojo

I'm all for basic levels of care being used for the reptile, and any other pet for that matter, and agree that someone should have to be 18 in order to purchase.
I disagree with Louise's opinion that reptiles should not be kept for the sole purpose of making money. If someone wants to make a living off of it, and can provide adequate and appropriate living conditions for their stock, I don't object. Some people keep pigs as pets, others farm them. I have more of an issue with the pet owners who get into it, then suddenly feel like they need one of everything, and end up with huge, poorly kept collections.

When Louise said that reptiles should not be kept for the sole purpose of making money, I agree totally with her, because if making money were the sole purpose, then the animals would likely not receive the care they need. If you have a person who hates the creatures, or is indifferent to them but uses them just to make money, then that person will probably hire a handler/cleaner who will also not care for them properly and is just doing a rather "unpleasant" job, also to make money.
It is true that responsible breeders will try to ensure that their animals are properly kept, because if the animals get sick ,then there goes the money down the drain, and money is the bottom line. However, there are many breeders who sell very sick animals to unsuspecting people, and still make their money - the bottom line.

[New_BP_Guy]

ya look at mine for example first one was so sick it died the second is healthy but it HAD mites when I got him but they are gone now, I smashed them good lol with spray...

[RevMojo]

Originally Posted by TammyJamaica

When Louise said that reptiles should not be kept for the sole purpose of making money, I agree totally with her, because if making money were the sole purpose, then the animals would likely not receive the care they need. If you have a person who hates the creatures, or is indifferent to them but uses them just to make money, then that person will probably hire a handler/cleaner who will also not care for them properly and is just doing a rather "unpleasant" job, also to make money.
It is true that responsible breeders will try to ensure that their animals are properly kept, because if the animals get sick ,then there goes the money down the drain, and money is the bottom line. However, there are many breeders who sell very sick animals to unsuspecting people, and still make their money - the bottom line.

You bring up some good arguments...all of which were negated by the qualifying of my approval of "snake farmers" with the statement that I don't object so long as adequate and appropriate living conditions are provided. Yes, there bad breeders out there, and yeah, they do make quite a few sales, but I cannot agree with a wholesale statement that just because someone is doing it for money they won't do it right, or with any of the other assumptions.

So what do we do about the bad breeders? Responsible reptile keepers quit buying from them, no matter how far down they mark their "merchandise."

[TammyJamaica]

Of course I don't think that just because someone is breeding animals for money, means that they will not do it right...I mean that if money is the sole object, then with some irresponsible breeders, a quick sale is all that will matter in one instance after another, to the detriment of the animals. I know that there are really responsible and caring breeders out there too, and I think that there is nothing wrong with making a business of breeding & selling, done responsibly. I breed and sell mice and rats, and they live in Paradise until That Fateful Day comes...!

As for keepers buying from irresponsible breeders, the fact of youthful enthusiasm - a kid being blinded by love for what is actually a very sick animal - comes in here, also there are the not-so-youthful "Rescuers" - and I can really understand the temptation to purchase an "unknown quantity" because of the human heart factor! "If I do not buy this poor animal, what will become of him? See how he looks up hopefully at me....I must save him!"
So the cycle starts again....to the gratification of the bad breeders and the suffering of the animal.

[deadliestformula]

To me a 'rescue' is NOT the animal on craigslist that someone no longer wants, or something they want to sell because they need the money.

A rescue is an animal that is being kept VERY POORLY. It is in need of health care. It is not being shown proper husbandry.

It's not a healthy snake that is being 'rehomed'.

That being said, rescues are a whole different story than typical reptiles. You should make sure that you know your stuff when you get a rescue. Enclosures should be set up ahead of time, and you should know how to treat whatever ails it. You should have the resources available to handle whatever may come up.

With other reptiles (non rescues), it is just a fact of life that impulse purchases will occur. I personally, have impuse bought. I had to keep one in a fisher price toy box with a heating pad under it for a week or so until I could shuffle other animals around and build a proper enclosure. I believe that basic knowlege is necessary, (what they eat, that they need heat and humidity, etc.) The specific frequencies of feeding, size of prey, temperatures, and humidity levels can be found rather quickly upon arrival home. You should know how to attain these thing before getting a snake. For instance, I know they need heat. I know that heat can be provided with CHE's undertank pads or bulb heat. I think that I will be fine tweaking the heat to a proper level once I ascertain what the level is. What I dislike is people who DO NOT know that snakes eat rodents, approx every 7-14 days, that they NEED heat to survive, who have no idea what so ever what kind of enclosure it needs. But if you have a rough idea of what is needed, and the common sense needed to comprehend the wealth of info that is readily available, then you should be okay

[sarecho7280]

responsibility is as simple as being knowledgeable and having the drive to do things right even when you don't feel like it.

the knowledge is out there on the net for ANYONE with access to view. there is no excuse anymore for lack of knowledge. there are also books for those internet-free folks

and the commitment to it all. doing what you don't feel like but know you should, being careful, etc.

it's all a matter of the business side of it booming over the past few years while the knowledge is being ignored. they're sold as "simple pets" by people who don't know how to care for them.

for the most part of it, business owners are capitalizing on the mass ignorance that has existed about snakes for years and years.

[torlax]

Yes a parent should be present and give the ok when someone under 18 buy's a snake. Responsible reptile keeping to me is when you have a cage or somthing ready for it when you get it, and that you also know what it eats, and how to keep good care of it and what to do when it is sheding. that is responsible snake/reptile keeping.

[ChadRamsey]

How do you explain to someone, WITHOUT them or anyone else getting offended, that pets are not trading cards? When the newness wears off, you cant just discard them like an old G.I. Joe!

With the parents expressed involvement, a little of this irresponsible pet keeping could be curbed!

I am not just talking about "child" pet keepers!

I know it would be impossible, but would it be a beautiful thing if breeders did a semi-screen of pet buyers?

in a perfect world, buyers would need the following:

References
With certain pets, experience with a similar species
Possibly a prior to purchase trip to the breeder’s facility
No more "shopping cart" websites! (Blasphemy!!!)
Age requirements for certain species
Parental consent under the age of say.....18
Proper enclosure set-ups before purchase is final
Care sheets provided with EVERY animal purchased
A breeder follow-up post purchase
Breeder willingness to re-acquire animal under exceptional conditions!

Then again in a perfect world we would not be face with such irresponsible pet keeping issued would we?

[CraigC]

To me, first and foremost is that someone should be "financially responsible" before getting any animal. Sometimes I wish that all reptiles would start with a price of $500.00 or more. You would quickly see the elimination of an impulse buy and the addition of much more fore thought to the buying process. Also, the hesitation to go to the vet would drop off substancially.

Everyone else has pretty much covered the other major concerns, but this is something that bothers me and is probably a main contributor to "DPS" (disposible pet syndrome).

Everyone has seen numerous requests for help, where often times the answer is vet care. More often the advice is passed on in favor of some "home remedy" that costs little or nothing, with no results and in the mean time the animals health derteriorates. Heck, I even got an answer in another forum where the help seekers attitude was "It is just an animal."

Craig

[New_BP_Guy]

Originally Posted by CraigC

To me, first and foremost is that someone should be "financially responsible" before getting any animal. Sometimes I wish that all reptiles would start with a price of $500.00 or more. You would quickly see the elimination of an impulse buy and the addition of much more fore thought to the buying process. Also, the hesitation to go to the vet would drop off substancially.
Craig

I dont really agree with that, if every reptile "started" $500 then you might lose more then just impulse buyers, or it could lead to the animals living in bad conditions. Since that would be $500 "at least" for the reptile and then another $300-500$+ for the setup depending on the reptiles needs. To me that would lose a lot of hobbyists or potential hobbyists (why does everything have to come down to money, it is already hard enough to keep it =P).

So instead of raising the prices to scare away impulse buyers "really making someone rich", educate the potential buyer in the reptiles needs and dont sell them the reptile unless they leave the store with everything they need (make sure they take the proper setup home with the reptile, minimal setup atleast).

[New_BP_Guy]

As a side note, I know a few people on here do it but I just dont see bins and sweater boxes as appropriate housing for snakes to me that is just the "cheap" way out. I think they should be in at least an aquarium (you can normally fine them pretty cheap) but some people have problems with humidity, so you can also make your own enclosure out of wood, plexy glass and screen mesh for a decent price, or the best would be a real terrarium.

[deadliestformula]

Originally Posted by New_BP_Guy

dont sell them the reptile unless they leave the store with everything they need ).

The problem with this is that even a statement like that is about money.
THe store would try to increase profit with selling everything highend.
And another problem with that would be for folks like me who OWN snakes, and have many other accessories tanks hides etc, that have been outgrown or that are no longer in use. I have what I need and wouldnt think it fair to be made to purchase overpriced pet shop stuff when a trip to a dollar store (for rubbermaid soak dishes) the hardware store (for lighting supplies) etc would be more economical. Besides you don't really NEED a water dish shaped like a rock when a butter tub will do just fine.

Perhaps if the price INCLUDED the proper supplies. But even then kind of impractical for those who have the necessary equiptment already.

[SoberGuy]

Originally Posted by New_BP_Guy

I dont really agree with that, if every reptile "started" $500 then you might lose more then just impulse buyers, or it could lead to the animals living in bad conditions. Since that would be $500 "at least" for the reptile and then another $300-500$+ for the setup depending on the reptiles needs. To me that would lose a lot of hobbyists or potential hobbyists (why does everything have to come down to money, it is already hard enough to keep it =P).
So instead of raising the prices to scare away impulse buyers "really making someone rich", educate the potential buyer in the reptiles needs and dont sell them the reptile unless they leave the store with everything they need (make sure they take the proper setup home with the reptile, minimal setup atleast).

While I can see your point, I don't think everyone selling an animal is responsible for what the buyer does. Now, it's a bit different if some guy sells a retic to a 12 year old... But, we'll use Craig for example. Is he responsible for ensuring that everyone who wants to purchase a corallus from him is properly informed of all the specific husbandry requirements? Is he responsible for making sure they all have the proper equipment to handle and properly house a corallus? Craig is a great example here, because he sells over his website, not in a pet store. Should there be a required test that one must pass before being able to access the availability page? Think about how much time and effort this would take on part of every single breeder. It's just unrealistic.

As for the stores selling a setup and the animal.... Ideally the setup would be in place and running at consistent temps and humidity for at least a week before anything went inside it. So even that isn't the greatest idea.

I do think that breeders have some responsibilty for screening and weeding out people. Can they do it all on their own? No. A large part of it is having appropriate prices and the hobbiests assisting hobbiests.