Responsible Reptile Keeping Debate V1.0

[CraigC]

Originally Posted by New_BP_Guy

I dont really agree with that, if every reptile "started" $500 then you might lose more then just impulse buyers, or it could lead to the animals living in bad conditions. Since that would be $500 "at least" for the reptile and then another $300-500$+ for the setup depending on the reptiles needs. To me that would lose a lot of hobbyists or potential hobbyists (why does everything have to come down to money, it is already hard enough to keep it =P).
So instead of raising the prices to scare away impulse buyers "really making someone rich", educate the potential buyer in the reptiles needs and dont sell them the reptile unless they leave the store with everything they need (make sure they take the proper setup home with the reptile, minimal setup atleast).

My point is just that, lose those that really can't afford to own an animal. I know there are people that wouldn't bat an eye at loosing $500.00, but I am certainly not one of them. None of my animals cost me less than $300.00 and some closer to $3000.00. Every adult cage I have set up would go $500.00 or more if I counted my labor to build them. Do you really believe that someone who has the money to buy a $500.00 animal, would keep it in substandard conditions? I find that tough to swallow. No pet store is going to screen buyers to determine if they are capable of proper care and most will sell to minors. Do you really think they care? That is the reason most pet stores don't carry high dollar reptiles. I would not be upset to see pet stores get out of herps entirely, along with the jobbers and breeders that supply them.

The only folks who care enough to screen potential buyers are small time ones, that would just as soon not sell the animal, than see it go to an unprepared buyer.

Craig

[VoodooChile]

I definitely get what you are saying Craig.

I don't agree with making the buyer of a reptile purchase everything they need from the store wjhere you purchase the animals, for the exact reasons April stated.
Most pet stores are in it for the money anyways, they jack up prices 3 times the amount that you can purchase it online! Look at UV/Heat combos, Petco 79.99 vs LLLReptile.com at 39.95!

It's not reasonable to expect that!!
Not when you've seen for yourself the great cages people of just THIS site have built for their snake's needs.
I bought dog water bowls at the dollar store, whereas PetCo didn't have anything in that size in the reptile section.
I know many people use cat litter pans for water bowls for larger snakes, or even paint buckets.
I buy brooder heat lamps and work lamp fixtures at Lowe's for 3-5 bucks vs the 10 dollar versions at other major Pet retailers.
The digital thermometers I picked up at Home Depot (or wal mart) for about 8 bucks. There are SOME areas of reptile keeping you can cut corners safely and without risking your snake.

Oh and SAND is NOT the best substrate for a beardie, nor is the coconut fiber for Water Dragons.. but that is what the pet store will try to sell you, and aspen isnt always the best alternative, cypress is available at lawn & garden centers for 2 bucks a HUGE bag. I still have part of a bag I bought last season!

I get my animals given to me as rescues, I spend 2ce if not MORE of the PetStore retail amount in vet bills getting them healthy enough in order for them to comfortably live their lives, or turn around and GIVE them to good homes. I have purchased a couple of animals from reptile shows. But most of my animals were freebies that I've spent several hundred dollars on just to keep them alive
I considered doing adoption fees, but honestly, I do better when I give them to people who are knowledgable and willing to take them.
So far, every new owner I've found, I haven't even had to educate on the animals they got from me. Usually after speaking to someone for a short amount of time, you get a feel wether or not they know how to care for their animal or not. They already knew what all they needed..and were willing to get what was necessary. The ones that called up and said they "needed a big snake so it could free roam in their house to kill all the mice", I hung up on..lol
I have a business card with a few online references and my phone number and email if they need anything. I take them with me when I go to the pet stores, and I give them out when I see someone getting an animal that they are in now way ready for. I've had a few calls, and a few animals brought to me that way.
Sometimes just reaching out to others, is the only thing you can do.

[New_BP_Guy]

Well I just meant someone who has no experience going into a store to by a reptile should be educated and make sure they have everything the reptile needs.

I know a lot of experienced keepers have stuff lying around so when then get a new baby something will be setup for them. I got most of my stuff from herpsupplies.com (I already had the tank lying around) before I got my BP...

Just with craigs "wish" I cannot afford $500+ for a reptile + the cost of the setup right now as I am not working full time atm and I am going back to school full time in September, that is my only problem with what he said...

because what is the cost of food 25 cents a rat pup? and the ocational vet trip free to hundreds of dollars...

and as for breeders with questionnaires they should do it and be more responsible because the last 5 dog breeders that I have dealt with each had their own questionnaires...

[New_BP_Guy]

Originally Posted by CraigC

Do you really believe that someone who has the money to buy a $500.00 animal, would keep it in substandard conditions? I find that tough to swallow. No pet store is going to screen buyers to determine if they are capable of proper care and most will sell to minors. Do you really think they care? Craig

I just finished reading this entire post. Yes I do believe someone who is an impulse buyer with the extra cash or someone who wants it and doesnt know anything about will spend the $500 for the animal and give it substandard housing since they spent all their money on the pet its self...

No pet stores arent going to screen their buyers? well at least with the places I go to they screen their potential buys to buy fish, and same with where I got Jason from so ya some do care... it is just something that has to be enforce by either the stores owners/management or even by law...

Most sell to minors because there are no laws stating they arent allowed to, the only things that I know are limited to age are: Voting, Lottery, Tattoos & Piercings, and last but not least drinking and smoking...

oh and am i right in saying that you are a breeder Craig? would that be why you dont want to be responsible and want to raise the price, maybe get an extra bulge in your pants?

[SoberGuy]

Whoa, let's not get personal in here, please. Craig is a well respected breeder of corallus caninus, and one of the best guys around. Please don't take offense to this, but please do your homework before calling someone out.

Now, to the rest of it.... While some stores may screen buyers, I think it's safe to say that the vast majority won't. Heck, I bet the vast amjority of breeders (reptile breeders) won't do much screening at all. Usually the only screening I find is "Do you have the money?" Of course there will be exceptions, but I believe this to be true for the majority.

To me, the question is should a breeder be responsible for screening potential buyers, and to what extent? Perhaps that is a whole new debate topic in and of itself. Matter of fact, I'll go start that one up, or request it be started. So let's try to keep this thread to responsible reptile keeping.

That said, I'd like to see more buyers do their research prior to making any purchases, even with equipment.

[New_BP_Guy]

Originally Posted by SoberGuy

Whoa, let's not get personal in here, please. Craig is a well respected breeder of corallus caninus, and one of the best guys around. Please don't take offense to this, but please do your homework before calling someone out.

Now, to the rest of it.... While some stores may screen buyers, I think it's safe to say that the vast majority won't. Heck, I bet the vast amjority of breeders (reptile breeders) won't do much screening at all. Usually the only screening I find is "Do you have the money?" Of course there will be exceptions, but I believe this to be true for the majority.

To me, the question is should a breeder be responsible for screening potential buyers, and to what extent? Perhaps that is a whole new debate topic in and of itself. Matter of fact, I'll go start that one up, or request it be started. So let's try to keep this thread to responsible reptile keeping.

That said, I'd like to see more buyers do their research prior to making any purchases, even with equipment.

I just have a problem with a lot reptile breeders, selling reptiles because they do their home work on genetics (for different morphs) and then rely on what an animal is programed to do and then sell the babies for thousands of dollars, and it just happens that a breeder wished they would raise the prices of them...

so I think that breeders should do more to help the buyer (new pet owner) be a responsible one not just be there to hold his hand out to take your savings away...

[SoberGuy]

I think Craig's point was that it's a deterrent. A useful tactic to discourage irresponsible people or un-informed people from buying a particular species. Perhaps someone would see a high price tag and say, "Why so much?" Then they may end up doing some research to determine if that particular species is really worth the price tag. In doing that research, they're bound to stumble upon some useful information for care and proper husbandry. Those too lazy to do some homework will simply say "No way!"

And again I'll pose one of my previous questions/food for thought. If Craig, for example, were to screen every person he had inquire about an animal, how much time would that take of his? Properly educating each individual would be a massive undertaking, and honestly, with a lot of breeders having another full time job, there simply isn't enough time in the day to do that. Now, if Craig decided to quit his job (assuming he has one) to fully educate each person inquiring about a corallus, I see no problem with him raising his prices. If he wants to charge twice as much (not saying he does), but is willing to provide thorough education and verification of set-ups up-front, I'm perfectly OK with that.

[RioBravoReptiles]

Responsible reptile keepers:
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1) Make the health and longevity of each animal the primary goal. Things such as breeding or size or resale-ability are secondary goals.
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2) Are sensitive to the opinions (and fears) of other people, whether real or not, and so keep their animals in a way that doesn't intrude on other people.
.
This thread also mentioned 'impulse buyers'.. I do everything possible to discourage them from buying and to encourage them to learn more. Impulse buyers characteristically externalize things regarding their Boa pet.. if they get bit, it's a 'mean' boa, if it doesn't eat the way they expect then it is a 'problem feeder'.. Everybody starts somewhere! Ultimatelly it is up to us to make the observations and adjustments to accomodate our pets, not the other way around. That's what a responsible keeper does.
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Anyway, that's my thoughts on that.

[New_BP_Guy]

Originally Posted by SoberGuy

I think Craig's point was that it's a deterrent. A useful tactic to discourage irresponsible people or un-informed people from buying a particular species. Perhaps someone would see a high price tag and say, "Why so much?" Then they may end up doing some research to determine if that particular species is really worth the price tag. In doing that research, they're bound to stumble upon some useful information for care and proper husbandry. Those too lazy to do some homework will simply say "No way!"

And again I'll pose one of my previous questions/food for thought. If Craig, for example, were to screen every person he had inquire about an animal, how much time would that take of his? Properly educating each individual would be a massive undertaking, and honestly, with a lot of breeders having another full time job, there simply isn't enough time in the day to do that. Now, if Craig decided to quit his job (assuming he has one) to fully educate each person inquiring about a corallus, I see no problem with him raising his prices. If he wants to charge twice as much (not saying he does), but is willing to provide thorough education and verification of set-ups up-front, I'm perfectly OK with that.

Either way I would say no, I really wanted a Caramel Albino BP but they are about $5,000+ Canadian so I said no way and got a normal for $150cad. If a breeder is going to charge and arm and a leg for a reptile then they should at least sit down and design a well detail care sheet and spend some of that "hard earned" money and get a ton of them printed out (actually pretty cheap)...

Here is some real food for though, Raising the price of reptiles wont do anything except discourage a lot of people from spending that kind of money on a reptile especially common species...