Venomous Keeping Debate V1.0

[natas]

WARNING: The following thread may contain pictures or links to pictures with disturbing images as a result of snake bites.

This is version 1 of the debate "Venomous Keeping Debate". What this thread is not is a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

In this thread we will talk about the following:

* Who should be able to keep venomous reptiles
* Why keeping venomous reptiles is important
* Why you should not keep venomous reptiles. Example of what could happen
* Should a keeper be required to store Anti-venom for each type locally?
* Should venomous reptiles require yearly inspections. What standards should be met when being "audited"?

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Your opinion on the matters above are important. This subject is a very touchy one, so please respect each other.

Enjoy, and have fun!

[TammyJamaica]

Enjoying my venture into the "Debates"!

Venomous reptiles are just reptiles with a specific method of attack/defense that is very dangerous/fatal.

I believe that it is OK for people to keep them just the same as any other reptiles, as long as the keepers are mature and responsible, and certain things are understood and in place to accommodate this potentially fatal situation.

I personally would really hesitate to keep one, unless of course it was one in dire need of being rescued - then I have to admit I probably would take it, at least until I found it a good home, a good release somewhere appropriate, or I fell in love.

[X-Factor]

* Who should be able to keep venomous reptiles
* Why keeping venomous reptiles is important
* Why you should not keep venomous reptiles. Example of what could happen
* Should a keeper be required to store Anti-venom for each type locally?
* Should venomous reptiles require yearly inspections. What standards should be met when being "audited"?

To answer the posed questions that I feel I can competently address:

1: A keeper should be required to store Anti-venom of sufficient quantity (Being defined as sufficient quantity to adequately treat each member of his/her household) of each kept type for two reasons: 1) For personal safety and for any that reside in his/her household. 2) To have readily available that anti-venom for use in hospitals should the need arise for another incident.
Failure to do this in my mind constitutes gross misconduct.

2: The reasons for a yearly inspection should be fairly obvious, and a good idea.
-Ensuring that proper safety procedures are in place for keeper and household, as well as community.
-Ensuring proper quality of life is maintained for the animal, as it is the responsibility of the keeper to do so in the first place. As for standards to be met during an "audit" I cannot intelligently comment for I believe they can and should be type specific. Taking this one step further and slightly off topic I think this should extend to larger types of constrictors as well.

These are my thoughts on the last two posed questions. Regarding the first two I cannot seem to put my thoughts to words.

[sarecho7280]

storing a/v of sufficient quantity for an 8' eastern diamondback could mean storing $100,000 worth of a/v for ONE bite. a/v has a shelf life too, so if you are smart and avoid the business end, then you'll effectively waste $100,000.

and no one can really define "sufficient quantity" because no one can predict the envenomation details, reaction, etc.

when we're talking about thousands of wasted dollars, keeping your own a/v for all species is ridiculous and basically impossible for 99% of the keepers.

safety is totally relative and until everyone wears fire retardant suits and helmets just to drive their cars to the grocery store, then everyday life is FULL of inherent danger.

no venomous snake has ever escaped and bitten anyone but the owner, and even that's rare.

i'm all for regulation, but that requires competent wildlife officials, which probably is too much to ask.

most can't tell the difference in a neotropical rattler and an edb. if they can't properly ID animals, then they can't regulate caging methods properly. you have to be educated in the field and most simply are NOT.

nonvenomous snakes are confiscated and killed due to the official's lack of knowledge. they will take a kill first, ask questions later approach in the interest of "public safety".

people who are capable of keeping hots SHOULD be able to keep them. stupid mistakes should cost you those priveleges. endangering others should too. a simple permit system set up to ensure this would be great, but most are there to generate money, to complicate things as a deterrent, etc.

even florida's permit system is heavily flawed. why can they sell out of state to anyone over the net but can't sell to non-florida permitted buyers IN florida? why can people get bitten by their gaboon 3 times before action is taken. poor regulation or expensive regulation encourages people to go underground and that is where idiots take over and people die.

hots aren't nearly as bad, IN REALITY, as most of the animals people encounter daily, they're just different and in america, different is frowned upon behind closed doors.
i'm more leery around other humans than any other animals. man is the scariest beast.

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by megascops-osio

storing a/v of sufficient quantity for an 8' eastern diamondback could mean storing $100,000 worth of a/v for ONE bite. a/v has a shelf life too, so if you are smart and avoid the business end, then you'll effectively waste $100,000.

and no one can really define "sufficient quantity" because no one can predict the envenomation details, reaction, etc.

Since the US has mainly Crotalids, native venomous species are a bit different as they are all (except Micrurus) treated with a single polyvalent. The current treatment is CroFab (about $900 a vial) and the "average" treatment is about 12 vials (6 initial dose, then followup doses). I see no need to keep CroFab on hand since it is often found at local hospitals and it is not "rare" in the US. Now I do recommend keeping tabs on AV supplies in one's area. Also if you have the ability to get exotic AVs, I would have some Bioclon on hand for particularly neurotoxic rattlesnake envenomations (i.e. Neotropical, Mojave, Canebrake, etc).

For exotic species, you have to get an orphan drug license. Not impossible to get, but not simple either. Primarily just alot of red tape. With exotic species, it would always be ideal to have as many vials as is recommended for a severe envenomation. Realistically, I would say keep at least enough to cover the first 12-24 hours. Bare minimum should be an initial dose. Exotic AVs are generally much more reasonably priced.

[torlax]

To answer those questions i will venture forward.

The only people that should be able to own a venomous reptile are people that are experienced with snakes and have years of snake care under their belts.

The reason why keeping venomous reptiles is important is because then you can get their venom and, by doing this, get an anti-venom.

The reason why you shouldn't is you could possibly be bitten and notice a few seconds later that it is either the most venomous snake that you own, or you don't own a anti for that snake.

A keeper should be able to own a anti for each type, for a reason that if you dont, spells death or high sickness if you own venomous reptile.

The last question, they should be inspected yearly just like any snake to make sure they aren't sick. For audited, i don't know what that means.

[Jatango]

Just a quick point of note, there should NEVER be an incidence where you "just notice" that a snake is the most venomous you own, or you "realize" that you don't have AV. If you are not totally aware of everything about that snake 100% of the time during which you're in strike range, give it to someone competent and give yourself a pat on the back for saving your own life.

[New_BP_Guy]

To me owning a hot is like a kid with a gun you dont always know what is going to happen as animals are truly unpredictable. But hey to each his own. As I see it if it can kill me then I dont want it in my house, hence why I have a little sissy dog . I do understand how dangerous a Constrictor is but in my eyes a hot can kill me with a bite while the Constrictors bite hurts it really isnt deadly which why I would have a Constrictor over a hot any day.

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by New_BP_Guy

I do understand how dangerous a Constrictor is but in my eyes a hot can kill me with a bite while the Constrictors bite hurts it really isnt deadly which why I would have a Constrictor over a hot any day.

The difference is that a venomous bite can be treated. There is no antivenom for asphyxiation.

[New_BP_Guy]

that is very true but constrictors do not suffocate their prey . Oh and in Canada we dont have a lot of anti-venom at least in the GTA that I know of.

[amercnwmn]

Originally Posted by New_BP_Guy

that is very true but constrictors do not suffocate their prey .

What does that have to do with it?
I mean, what is the difference when you can't breathe because your airway is being crushed, or you are having ribs broken from pressure?
I know you seem to think you can manage to keep a large constrictor from killing you if you don't place it around your neck, but I assure you several large snake keepers have been killed by their snakes without PLACING it around their neck.

[New_BP_Guy]

well first Constrictors kill by stopping blood flow not by stopping you from breathing, and the only times keepers have been kill by large snakes as been either they slip and fall in a very large snake enclosure for a 20' python or they arent paying attention to what they are doing, I havent heard of a 7'-8' constrictor someone has had for a pet killing them.

[morti]

Originally Posted by New_BP_Guy

well first Constrictors kill by stopping blood flow not by stopping you from breathing, and the only times keepers have been kill by large snakes as been either they slip and fall in a very large snake enclosure for a 20' python or they arent paying attention to what they are doing, I havent heard of a 7'-8' constrictor killing someone.

::KHS Meetings::

Not 7' - 8'. It was 11' and docile though.

[New_BP_Guy]

"14-foot-long Reticulated python"

that is one snake that I would never own, not to mention he was a pretty small guy...

[BWSmith]

Actually constricting snakes kill via combination of asphyxiation and circulatory/cardiac arrest.

[New_BP_Guy]

I saw a show that was about what was deadlier a king cobra or a 20' constrictor so they had like 6 snake experts or so and they did a demonstration with a mechanical constrictor. They had a dummy and then a real person; they showed with the dummy that someone would die with extreme blood pressure in the head (so much so your eyes would pop) before you couldnt actually breath anymore. When they did it will the real person when he asked to stop he had a sharp headache but could still breath. I guess it is a little different with a smaller constrictor, needless to say the constrictor is more dangerous...

[Jatango]

...constrictors are more dangerous? No, the most dangerous animal in the world is a scared one with no options. What happens when you scare a constrictor? Go ahead, try it now if you really want to prove a point. Sucker bit you huh? He didn't randomly throw a coil around your neck first, he didn't choose constriction as his first defense. Takes too much effort and isn't as effective of a scare tactic. Now go scare a hot. Hey, same response, except now you're in considerably more trouble. THAT is why the constrictor isn't more dangerous. You're much more likely to scare or startle an animal you own than get nailed out of aggression. Unfortunately for the hot keeper, they both seem to have the same response.

[amercnwmn]

The most dangerous animal is the one in an inexperienced keeper's care. That's just my opion. Someone who hasn't a clue what the animal is capable of, underestimates it, or is not prepared to work with it, or care for it, is in the most danger from that animal, and is the most dangerous TO the animal.

[sarecho7280]

Originally Posted by Jatango

...constrictors are more dangerous? No, the most dangerous animal in the world is a scared one with no options. What happens when you scare a constrictor? Go ahead, try it now if you really want to prove a point. Sucker bit you huh? He didn't randomly throw a coil around your neck first, he didn't choose constriction as his first defense. Takes too much effort and isn't as effective of a scare tactic. Now go scare a hot. Hey, same response, except now you're in considerably more trouble. THAT is why the constrictor isn't more dangerous. You're much more likely to scare or startle an animal you own than get nailed out of aggression. Unfortunately for the hot keeper, they both seem to have the same response.

you'd be surprised how capable constrictors are. venomous snakes are limited in their ability and they lack true power. with the edge in power comes conntrol and that's what humans normally have when it comes to keeping venomous snakes. the more controlled the environment the safer.

a very large constrictor is only controlled by its enclosure and when outside of that enclosure, we're simply fair game. people naturally want to respect venomous snakes though, but when they see large constrictors at photo-ops and nothing bad happens then, well, they assume that they're A-OK.

a venomous snake may bluff, then dry bite, then even after an envenomation, things are still not totally out of control.

if a big boid gets ahold of you and you aren't lucky or have some help, well, you're probably screwed.

i can grab any venomous snake behind the head and basically do as i please with it. yeah, some are harder to pin but they're all controllable whereas some constrictors are simply more than any one man can handle.

if you compare an 18ft king cobra to an 18ft burmese, there is no question about which is more capable of harm.

if there is still doubt, look at the prey items. most venomous snakes stick to smaller prey compared to big boids.

even the very large king cobras and mambas don't go after deer or antelope or alligators, etc.

big boids are scary and not nearly as respected as they should be.

we are weak creatures and when that weakness is totally exposed, we're most vulnerable

how many captive hots killed their owners last year? how about in the past 10 years?

what about those big boid related deaths?

[New_BP_Guy]

see the constrictor is more dangerous because if a 20' python, boa, anaconda etc. decides it is going to constrict you it can wrap you up like nothing since they are all muscle (depending on the persons size and weight). Once it starts to constrict you have a matter of seconds rather then a matter of painful hours...

oh and after thinking about it, I would say that guy who is 150lbs at 5'8" had the 14' Python around his neck how else would someone that small hold it, you can actually see it over his shoulder in one of the pics...