Permit system for HOTS V1.0

[natas]

Big Thanks go out to SoberGuy for the idea!

This is version 1 of the debate "Permit systems for HOTS". What this thread is not is a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

In this thread we will talk about the following:

* Are permit systems for HOTS helpful or a hindrance?
* What should be required before a HOT permit is allowed?
* Should the hot owners establish a foundation or agency to assist the government in overseeing permit guidelines
* Should the herp society be allowed total control with only minimal involvement from the government
* Other HOT Permit related arguments.
Special rules for this thread:

1) As always, please stay on topic. Off topic replies, will be removed.
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3) Try your best to back your statement up with scientific fact, studies you have read or done.
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5) Before posting, please read the rules of this forum.
6) 10 day bans for personal attacks on persons or companies.

Your opinion on the matters above are important.
Enjoy, and have fun!

[amercnwmn]

I personally like the Fla permit legislation if any were to be implemented in Arkansas, that would be what I would love to have.
It requires certain hours to be accumulated under a mentor, certain guidelines be met..etc..investigations are conducted..its all quite on the level.
Although, as with the large constrictors, and any other permit legislation, there will be those who break the law...What to do with them?? With the snakes??

It's really a shame that more sellers won't regulate their own sales which is what leaves us to government legislation. I know (and have seen) a few hots going home with completely inexperienced, unprepared, and underaged buyers.

In my state there are no laws re: native/exotics other than sales/trading of natives. If more sellers would be more selective as to whom they sell to, less legislation would be necessary, but with many hobbies, it's all about the benjamins, and the heck with what you know..

[morti]

Here in Kentucky, we have the opportunity to own venomous species native to the state. Anything not native to Kentucky is banned with no hope of a permit. This assumes that you live in a city or county that doesn't have their own ordinance about "dangerous animals". Here in Louisville, for instance, venomous snakes are all banned, native or exotic, also with no permit.

I would LOVE to see a permit system both on a state level and a local level. As it stands right now, I cannot keep venomous snakes at all. So when you compare the idea of a permit system to that of a total ban, the permit system begins to sound a lot better.

[bcfos1]

I am a huge fan of the state of Florida's permit system myself. Everything is very well defined and one can expect an inspection yearly. The cost is reasonable also.

Some states are just really behind the times but getting legislation passed about venomous snakes is like pulling teeth.

For instance in Alabama where I live. They system is so messed up the agencies which can issue permits don't even know they have the power to do so. There is no set fee's stated by law for a permit. No inspection process stated by law. And worse no program in place to insure only experienced keepers can keep venomous. It is just too confusing for most keepers to even know that they can recieve a permit to keep exotic venomous. That really needs to change but it seems no one is interested in pushing through legislation to do so.

[sarecho7280]

Originally Posted by bcfos1

I am a huge fan of the state of Florida's permit system myself. Everything is very well defined and one can expect an inspection yearly. The cost is reasonable also.
Some states are just really behind the times but getting legislation passed about venomous snakes is like pulling teeth.
For instance in Alabama where I live. They system is so messed up the agencies which can issue permits don't even know they have the power to do so. There is no set fee's stated by law for a permit. No inspection process stated by law. And worse no program in place to insure only experienced keepers can keep venomous. It is just too confusing for most keepers to even know that they can recieve a permit to keep exotic venomous. That really needs to change but it seems no one is interested in pushing through legislation to do so.

have a link to the legislation that empowers agencies to approve anyone in the general public to keep exotic venomous in alabama? i'm sure zoos in alabama have them, but i know of no one else who legally does. i have a friend who moved from florida and he was told NOPE and the legislative code says as much.

[bcfos1]

Originally Posted by megascops-osio

have a link to the legislation that empowers agencies to approve anyone in the general public to keep exotic venomous in alabama? i'm sure zoos in alabama have them, but i know of no one else who legally does. i have a friend who moved from florida and he was told NOPE and the legislative code says as much.

"220-2-.26 "Restrictions on Possession, Sale, Importation and/or Release of Certain Animals and Fish"

INTENDED ACTION:

Amendment.

SUBSTANCE OF PROPOSED ACTION:


This rule provides for an exception for certain persons who are determined to have received incorrect information concerning the possession or importation of skunks in Alabama; prohibits possession, sale, importation, or release of any nonindigenous venomous reptile with certain exceptions; and further provides for certain exceptions."

Alabama Administrative Monthly, Volume XIX, No. 6

This "exception" is the kicker. It is wholely up to the sheriff in each individual county on a "case by case" basis. It was never cleared up in legislative action and documented which has caused a great deal of confusion in the state. Department of Natural Resources cannot do anything as it doesn't give specific inforcement powers to them. And this was just the update where it was back ended on the skunk bill... the original exceptions were zoo's, educational displays and programs, medical research, and those already in possession of such reptiles. Either way you cut it I am covered by at least two of those exceptions along with the exception relating to the county thanks to a good friend who did me a big favor before he left office.

So in a nutshell your friend is pretty much out of luck due to the confusion and wording of the code. Had he been around before it was passed and updated he would have had no problem.

But I have something on the back burner sort of like the Florida code. Just finding a rep or senator to attatch it onto a sure fired passible bill is not an easy thing to do. A basic outline of it is this.

If a permit was obtained from another state that has a permit sysyem in place the "training" period is waved and only the $250 permit fee along with a $50 dollar application fee is all that would be due along with the initial visit from Dept. of Natural Resources. If no permit was obtained a 1 year training period of no less than 520 hours and a properly filled out application with certified and noterized documented proof of 520 hours actual training along with all fees would get you a first visit and then a permit. Violations would be fined like this. First violation $300. Second $600. Third loss of permit and animals for one years time from date of infraction and another $800.

You may think the fee's and fines are kind of high but they will fund the on site visits and not cause a budget increase for that department. plus let's face it.... Alabama is pretty much broke anyway.

[sarecho7280]

you say this:

They system is so messed up the agencies which can issue permits don't even know they have the power to do so.

then you say this:

So in a nutshell your friend is pretty much out of luck due to the confusion and wording of the code.

basically, you still can't legally keep exotic venomous in alabama without a permit and they don't give out permits to regular people. where is this legislation at that empowers them? you provided a link to nothing of value concerning that. the law with skunks IS cleared up now, but i find it hard to believe that they just forgot to the clear up the exotic venomous law. i know for a fact that you can legally possess skunks under certain acquisition stipulations in that state, but i'm kind of under the impression that in court, your permit would be as useless as one i had written for you. a sheriff's power isn't that great. as long as those UNDER the sheriff answer to him, then they obviously won't bother you. my step brother lives in north alabama and has a CCW permit because he was a high school basketball star and is buddies with the sheriff. he's done 2 things that would have violated that permit, but still has it because of that relationship.

like with anything, knowing the right people is as good as doing something legally. either way, you're safe

[bcfos1]

Originally Posted by megascops-osio

you say this:

They system is so messed up the agencies which can issue permits don't even know they have the power to do so.

then you say this:

So in a nutshell your friend is pretty much out of luck due to the confusion and wording of the code.

basically, you still can't legally keep exotic venomous in alabama without a permit and they don't give out permits to regular people. where is this legislation at that empowers them? you provided a link to nothing of value concerning that. the law with skunks IS cleared up now, but i find it hard to believe that they just forgot to the clear up the exotic venomous law. i know for a fact that you can legally possess skunks under certain acquisition stipulations in that state, but i'm kind of under the impression that in court, your permit would be as useless as one i had written for you. a sheriff's power isn't that great. as long as those UNDER the sheriff answer to him, then they obviously won't bother you. my step brother lives in north alabama and has a CCW permit because he was a high school basketball star and is buddies with the sheriff. he's done 2 things that would have violated that permit, but still has it because of that relationship.

like with anything, knowing the right people is as good as doing something legally. either way, you're safe

Welcome to the state of Alabama where confusion exists due to ignorance in the state house. As for anything in court in reference to exotic venomous. They never got around to adding if and what a violation would incur. The last time anything was said or done about this was some guy up in north Alabama had a false water cobra confiscated and destroyed because it was sooo dangerous. No legal action was brought against that person because there is no clause for any legal action to be brought.

And what I linked is pretty much what you get in this state. The original was passed with such confusing wording it was re-written as you see it in that link and piggy-backed on the skunk bill. They do this all the time with various health codes and hunting regulations also. The only thing they are clear on is anything to do with oil and natural gas, department of homeland security, and the departments of transportation and public safety.

So even if some person had a large collection of exotics and was caught with them the only thing that would happen is the animals would be confiscated and destroyed unless they had a collection of rare species one of the zoo's in the state would be happy to take in. Maybe they could push it out to maybe include being a danger to public safety but if they were kept in secure enclosures that wouldn't fly in court either. Yet getting something better and more well defined passed is frustrating. Which is what a good number of people just keep their collection pretty much a secret (which I don't approve of either)..

[project_evolution]

Im kinda torn on this one, as theres alot of problems with government agencies controlling what we as americans can and cannot keep. One one hand I dont believe its the governments place to tell me what I can and cannot own or do with my property. There in my opinion are already too many laws that regulate my life and i dont really think the government has the right to impose more law and legislation on me.
On the other hand you can kind of think of it like a permit to have a hand gun or operate a motor vehicle. Both can be potentially deadly, and in the hands of an irresponsible owner can cause harm to the general public.
Definately this is a decision that the individual states should make and never be regulated on a federal level.

[mpgt]

Originally Posted by project_evolution

...On the other hand you can kind of think of it like a permit to have a hand gun or operate a motor vehicle. Both can be potentially deadly, and in the hands of an irresponsible owner can cause harm to the general public.

I like your post, but this point has me thinking. Owning a car or handgun doesn't put anyone at risk. Improper use of a car or handgun does. The same could be said for golf clubs, weed eaters, screw drivers, kitchen knives and many other things. None of these things are dangerous until improperly used by someone. When any of these things are regulated by permit, it's because the govt doesn't trust the public. Their aim is to protect us from each other or ourselves. I don't like being protected from myself, just on principle. I'd rather the govt (city, state or higher), presume that I'm responsible until proven otherwise. If the purpose of the venomous reptile permit, or any other one is to protect me from my own snakes, I object.

Having said all that, out of all the things I mentioned above, only the venomous reptile could be a danger if left to its own designs (or allowed to escape). To my mind, this justifies permits on possession and transfer. It's a lot better than banning them altogether.

[Lucille]

One good point about a permit system is that it identifies what kind of hots are in any particular area. If that info was shared with local hospitals, perhaps they would be able to keep the proper type of antivenin on hand in case it was ever needed.

[project_evolution]

Originally Posted by mpgt

Owning a car or handgun doesn't put anyone at risk. Improper use of a car or handgun does. Their aim is to protect us from each other or ourselves. I don't like being protected from myself, just on principle.

Im right there with you on the governmental control. Awhile back I looked into getting some purebred eurasian boars to breed into my domestic stock. After looking into the permit system for these guys it was going to cost me somewhere in the neighborhood of 2grand per animal to buy them and get them onto my property.

The point I was making about the snakes being synonymous with a car or handgun was kinda about iresponsible people. There was a guy on here awhile back for instance that posted pics of a cobra he was keeping in a tuperware container under his bed. In my opinion this is absolutely iresponsible behavior and not acceptable as an enclosure for a deadly animal. A hot should be treated like a loaded gun, if it got out and god forbid escaped your house there is no telling what damage it could cause. I would like to see everyone who gets a hot be responsible enough to enclose it properly.I believe this would require a non mesh top/sides, along with a locking system that requires a key to open it. It should be made of materials not easily broken such as safety glass so if it gets knocked over it doesnt shatter releasing the animal. Im not opposed to breeders taking the initiative to check ID's on people and microchip animals so when people let these things go after realizing "wow i have a cobra im the coolest guy ever, but hmmm....how do i clean his cage?" As it stands you can order half a dozen diamondbacks,albino cobra,a breeding pair of puff adders and get em shipped to you in a cardboard box packed with peanuts. What about the poor sap just doing his job delivering your mail that gets bit because someone dropped the box and tore it a little?
All im saying government regulation bad - personal responsibility & a moral compass good....

[brownsfan222]

I believe that the permit system should only be used if their is a serious problem with injuries, etc. If you truly want to keep hots then you won't mind going through the mentorship, and the licensing procedures.

[jake_brownell2004]

i belive you should have plenty of exp. 2 years o mentoring at least and be atleast 21-25 to own/ purshas hots